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Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

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Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#81

Post by tomrod »

oynqr wrote: post #59
DanBC wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply untrue. EG "I am—well, I was—great at opsec. I got doxxed on farms because someone spent 50+ hours trying to nail me down until he ultimately “compare[d] her tweets to weather history to determine her city, and complied a parametric list of all the profs in nyc and went from there."

I don't see what an out-of-context quote disproves about my hypothesis.

Your assessment that the quote is out-of-context is where the disconnect looks to be.

The OP mentions that they tried to follow good opsec but had an issue, and you mentioned "Showing basic restraint and not oversharing online" as the solution -- which based on OP's opsec comment they looked to follow that.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#82

Post by thunderfork »

oynqr wrote: post #59
DanBC wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply untrue. EG "I am—well, I was—great at opsec. I got doxxed on farms because someone spent 50+ hours trying to nail me down until he ultimately “compare[d] her tweets to weather history to determine her city, and complied a parametric list of all the profs in nyc and went from there."

I don't see what an out-of-context quote disproves about my hypothesis.

So your "hypothesis" is that "don't ever post about the weather if you don't want to get harassed and chilling effect'd over being trans" is fine and normal and cool, but "don't run a harassment website if you want to keep free DDOS protection for more than 13 years" is the end of free speech as we know it?

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#83

Post by tomrod »

yanderekko wrote: post #51

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activist crowd. A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat, which is why I can't take these crybully attacks on speech seriously.

Why are you guaranteed to lose your job for the opinion?

Transwomen face very real danger of death and harm[0], for the record, both generally and as a result of targeted doxxing and harassment in online forums. Since KiwiFarms does this, why do you not consider this an intrinsic threat?

[0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2019.1...

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#84

Post by thunderfork »

yanderekko wrote: post #51

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activist crowd. A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat, which is why I can't take these crybully attacks on speech seriously.

I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immediately.

>A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat

Yeah, man, a real swatting and bomb threat don't compare in the slightest to the scenario you've presented where someone defending KF gets fired, something that's definitely happened.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#85

Post by [deleted] »

thedorkknight wrote: post #65
yanderekko wrote: post #51

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activist crowd. A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat, which is why I can't take these crybully attacks on speech seriously.

Do we have many/any examples of people defending free speech (note: not defending hate speech) losing their jobs for it? Honestly asking. I'd be interested in seeing how the number of incidents someone actually getting harmed by supporting free speech compares to the amount of people harmed for being trans or supporting trans rights

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#86

Post by neonsunset »

While it's sad to see such a sorry state of affairs while universities are literally practicing "purification flame ceremony"[0] for burning the books that some people may find offensive (everyone knows this but is afraid to resist because they'd be next on the list), it creates more and more reasons to make strong anonymity strong privacy networks to gain popularity. It's unfortunate that it happens through such rippling damage to society but it is what it is.

[0] https://thepostmillennial.com/ontario-schools-book-burning-r...

p.s.: please emigrate back to reddit

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#87

Post by oynqr »

thunderfork wrote: post #82
oynqr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what an out-of-context quote disproves about my hypothesis.

So your "hypothesis" is that "don't ever post about the weather if you don't want to get harassed and chilling effect'd over being trans" is fine and normal and cool, but "don't run a harassment website if you want to keep free DDOS protection for more than 13 years" is the end of free speech as we know it?

No. Please refrain from putting words into my mouth.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#88

Post by oynqr »

tomrod wrote: post #81
oynqr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what an out-of-context quote disproves about my hypothesis.

Your assessment that the quote is out-of-context is where the disconnect looks to be. The OP mentions that they tried to follow good opsec but had an issue, and you mentioned "Showing basic restraint and not oversharing online" as the solution -- which based on OP's opsec comment they looked to follow that.

I still don't know where the quote came from, its context, or if it is a quote in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I am legitimately puzzled by this exchange.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#89

Post by yanderekko »

Volundr wrote: post #67
yanderekko wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the cancellation mob only has reach to a limited number of targets, like KiwiFarms. If Keffels or someone like them did in fact highlight someone and contact their employer I expect that this would have results.

Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. So who? Who is this person who has been attacked by the "cancellation mob" and fired for saying nothing more than "Cloudflare shouldn't have dropped Kiwifarms, if a crime was committed it was a matter for law enforcement?"

>Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone.

It needs to happen to someone on both sides. So let me turn this around: Who has KiwiFarms doxxed and harassed simply for the act of being trans and saying that CloudFlare should drop KiwiFarms (or something similarly innocuous).

imo the difference here is not "I have an example and you don't", but it's pretty clear from these discussions that a lot of people would be okay with people who defend KiwiFarms losing their jobs, while the thought of a trans person facing similar consequences for criticizing KiwiFarms is inplausible. Take the Cloudflare CEO's initial defense of not cutting service, which lead to a Harvard professor saying that Prince "simply wanted trans people dead", or something to that effect. If this is the kind of rhetoric that is considered okay in the current moment then what would happen if someone like me had posted a similar essay under my real name that caught the attention of Keffels or someone in her orbit? I can't prove it, but the outcome seems unfortunately obvious to me..

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#90

Post by yanderekko »

HanSchwar wrote: post #68
yanderekko wrote: post #51

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activist crowd. A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat, which is why I can't take these crybully attacks on speech seriously.

Excuse my lack of understanding about the topic since I'm not American, but is this thread about the swatting of Marjorie Taylor Greene? Isn't she some U.S. ultraconservative politician? Seems a little bit weird that a "right wing forum" would SWAT one of their own representatives, claiming the hit while using a voice changer, just in the middle of an open crusade against them, while some trans activists are trying t…

The swattings are pretty obviously a false flag made to bring negative attention to KiwiFarms. The criminal literally left a message saying "this is my KiwiFarms account btw". The media of course took this at face value because when you hate someone enough you'll believe literally anything negative about them, or at least act like you believe it.

But yes, swattings are still a pretty big deal and I suspect that someone will eventually be arrested for it! If so, and it turns out that the attack was a false flag, well... no one would care. The damage was done, and this person will probably be treated as a hero for what they did, albeit perhaps not too openly.

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