Don't ignore the janitor • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#241

Post by RHSeeger » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #215

RHSeeger wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly This is not unique to interactions between the well off and not well off. It's true that in most case, when people ask "how are you", they're not looking for a detailed answer. It's a pleasantry, and the expected answer are of a more general form ("ok", "great", "not great, but getting by", "not a great day", etc). As a side note, I have a clea…

Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault. But when the issue is wealth inequality, the wealthier person can help, but doesn't want to, out of selfish greed, and is on the "team" that is at fault. The wealthy person is either wracked with guilt (and a hypocrite for not acting) or is an entitled jerk. Unless the employer are paying the cleaner a good wage…

> Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault.

There will always be someone that you can help. And there will always be another charity that wants your money. In many of those cases, the person or charity is a worthy cause. But you cannot help all of them, so you must decide which ones are important the most important to _you_ to help. When you turn away a charity because you've already decided to give to different ones, that doesn't mean you think the charity is unworthy, nor does it mean that you're a bad person for not giving to _that_ charity;

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#242

Post by gbersac » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:42 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #215

RHSeeger wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly This is not unique to interactions between the well off and not well off. It's true that in most case, when people ask "how are you", they're not looking for a detailed answer. It's a pleasantry, and the expected answer are of a more general form ("ok", "great", "not great, but getting by", "not a great day", etc). As a side note, I have a clea…

Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault. But when the issue is wealth inequality, the wealthier person can help, but doesn't want to, out of selfish greed, and is on the "team" that is at fault. The wealthy person is either wracked with guilt (and a hypocrite for not acting) or is an entitled jerk. Unless the employer are paying the cleaner a good wage…

Do the wealthy really have to feel sorry for being wealthy when others aren't?

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#243

Post by nebula8804 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

spaghettiToy wrote: post #185

yaseer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can all joke about how Big Tech shovels some of the finest technical minds towards clicking ads. But on the plus side, the size of the tech sector in 2022 does make for much more efficient job market for technical skills, than in decades past. I would hope someone with a doctorate in mechanical engineering, who used to design jet engines, would be able adapt their skills to go work somewhere like Tesla, or a self-…

I'll tell you the realities of Mechanical Engineering and auto. You typically will make a single part. Maybe its the plastic to cover the car's metal. Maybe its the screen user interfaces with, maybe its airbags. Whatever the case, the plastic and screens are deemed necessary by society to sell a car. Some mechanical engineer will have this job. At least you make cars right? Well there are over 20 major car companies…

>Strangely enough, startups/Tesla is the last place someone with advanced mechanical engineering knowledge would go. From a quality/feature standpoint, new companies have lower standards. Where an established company would be pushing technology and doing things that no one has done before, new companies are just trying to build a car. It would be a resume hit, because you worked on outdated/low tech.

Seems like the opposite has happened. Tesla, in its desperate attempt to stay alive(3-4 bankruptcy scares thus far) have found a niche where other OEMs didn't have expertise in (EVs) and really gone all out in innovation in areas where other OEMs have dropped the ball. In the car industry if you are a newcomer and you are just trying to "build a car" you are wasting your time/money and you will die. There needs to be a competitive advantage that claws people away from existing OEMs. I'd argue that the reason Tesla is clawing people away from the luxury brands. as well as getting people to move upmarket from the economy brands is the quality and innovation of their product in areas where typical OEM does not prioritize. Things such as software, day to day experience etc.

In terms of internal engineering, there are innovations as well. For example: The superbottle and octopump system utilize software and clever engineering to eliminate a complete coolant loop in the system. This eliminated parts, made the system more efficient and reduced cost. Tesla didn't have the organizational baggage plus they attracted some brilliant and dedicated engineers to make it happen.

There are many more documented examples of this.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#244

Post by eastbound » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

spaghettiToy wrote: post #189

technotarek wrote: post #170

PSA for the younger reader and / or parents: Try being the janitor. I was effectively the janitor for a public ice arena outside Detroit from the age of 14 to 16. I cleaned public restrooms, as well as hockey locker rooms. I emptied large trash bins (thankfully before recycling was mainstream). I cleaned below the bleachers. That was probably the worst. But, if I may say, that experience helped mold me, for the bette…

I also think my teenage job was monumental in my career. Mostly that it helped me get my first industry job. Then my first intern industry job sucked, which got me a fantastic first job.

> a fantastic first job

Of maybe it was a normal job which you were respecting to its true value? Being treated as a human being sometimes feel uplifting compared to other experiences.

I hired an intern (in France it’s a two-year contract for 20-year-olds where I pay their study and they get shit pay). One the first two days, she worked 6.45 hours (contract is 7hrs).

It’s her first job in an office (has once worked as a vendor) and I’m tempted to terminate her. She has learnt less at school than I thought. Maybe she’s young. I thought when you really wanted a job your worked 8hrs the first day, just in case. I can’t tell her that, because as an employer it’s forbidden in France. If I fire her, she’ll have to find a new employer before the beginning of the classes, which is impossible, so she would have to only start school next year.

But I fully expect that the reason she hasn’t learnt enough at school (like, not learnt Ctrl+Z, or using Caps Locks for a single uppercase, I mean common you’re a digital native, I’m not, I was expecting her to do most of our marketing), is the same why she worked 6.45.

I’m also upset that you can pass Baccalauréat and license degree and not master basic typing.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#245

Post by nebula8804 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

nonameiguess wrote: post #239

inglor_cz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1990s, when the former USSR had gone to shit, you could meet a lot of menial workers from the ex-Soviet republics who had academic degrees and could hold a conversation to prove it. I studied mathematics in Prague in 1996-2003. More than once I met a janitor or a taxi driver who, albeit with a heavy Russian or Ukrainian accent, knew what a uniformly continuous function was and what does the Chinese Remainder T…

This is why, of all the schools I've gone to, LA City College remains the hardest, even after later graduating from a top ten engineering school. I was originally a biology major, and with Los Angeles flooded with refugees and immigrants, a whole lot of medical doctors and research scientists from former Soviet republics found themselves in a country where their licenses and degrees were not accepted, and they had to…

Isn't that a temporary thing though? I assume anyone that was going to come from the former Soviet republic has already come by now?

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#246

Post by spaghettiToy » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

eastbound wrote: post #244

spaghettiToy wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think my teenage job was monumental in my career. Mostly that it helped me get my first industry job. Then my first intern industry job sucked, which got me a fantastic first job.

> a fantastic first job Of maybe it was a normal job which you were respecting to its true value? Being treated as a human being sometimes feel uplifting compared to other experiences. I hired an intern (in France it’s a two-year contract for 20-year-olds where I pay their study and they get shit pay). One the first two days, she worked 6.45 hours (contract is 7hrs). It’s her first job in an office (has once worked a…

It was more of the opportunity I got. I've been told it's a high prestige job, and I've learned enough to start my own company. It's also the highest paid $/hr in my field.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#247

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #216

LBJsPNS wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.

It's more than that. The reality is what what the rich person is doing is wrong (taking advantage of people's desperation, as an opportunity to underpay for labor), but they can't handle facing it.

I'm currently arranging for a cleaning company to come in and scrub my mothers house down and I'll also be paying them what they ask.

In addition, I've been paying the same husband and wife to clean my house for something like 5 years now. How did I find them? I paid a company for a cleaning then offered the woman who showed up to cut said company out. They make more, I pay less.

5 years later and I've been completely happy with the arrangement, but I recently moved so will have to find someone else.

---

I pay what I'm charged. If you want to blame someone for these workers not being paid enough, blame the companies employing them.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#248

Post by spaghettiToy » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

nebula8804 wrote: post #243

spaghettiToy wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll tell you the realities of Mechanical Engineering and auto. You typically will make a single part. Maybe its the plastic to cover the car's metal. Maybe its the screen user interfaces with, maybe its airbags. Whatever the case, the plastic and screens are deemed necessary by society to sell a car. Some mechanical engineer will have this job. At least you make cars right? Well there are over 20 major car companies…

>Strangely enough, startups/Tesla is the last place someone with advanced mechanical engineering knowledge would go. From a quality/feature standpoint, new companies have lower standards. Where an established company would be pushing technology and doing things that no one has done before, new companies are just trying to build a car. It would be a resume hit, because you worked on outdated/low tech. Seems like the o…

>Seems like the opposite has happened

Only for outsiders.

In the industry you realize it's cutting corners and the end customer has a worse product.

There was a short lived perception that Tesla was doing innovation, but as the quality issues came up, it appears as cutting corners.

Tesla has a marketing effect that companies dream of. That was likely what confused industry insiders of innovation. That has been gone since ~2018.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#249

Post by chmod775 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #175

technotarek wrote: post #170

PSA for the younger reader and / or parents: Try being the janitor. I was effectively the janitor for a public ice arena outside Detroit from the age of 14 to 16. I cleaned public restrooms, as well as hockey locker rooms. I emptied large trash bins (thankfully before recycling was mainstream). I cleaned below the bleachers. That was probably the worst. But, if I may say, that experience helped mold me, for the bette…

Over in Japan, it's quite common in schools for the students to clean the classrooms, club rooms, hallways, and occasionally also the restrooms themselves. The schools mandate it as part of the curriculum, since it teaches vital life skills and builds character. The schools have janitors on their payroll, of course.

The secondary school I went to in Germany made students clean and rake the outside areas. Though with a class of around twenty it never took longer than an hour.

I never inquired why we did it, not expecting a straight answer anyways. I suspect it had more to do with discouraging littering than any deeper character lesson.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#250

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

inglor wrote: post #204

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

I believe a lot of people have a cordial/friendly relationship with their cleaner. I know my cleaner's wife and kids, have helped one of their kids get into coding and them to get access to training (bus-driving school, which they completed, then went back to cleaning because they didn't like the rude commuters). When I replace an appliance, my kid outgrows his cloths or I replace a laptop they've got second picks (a…

same here. I recently moved but until that happened I had used the same husband and wife couple for something like 5 years. The husband is a bit of a handyman so they've picked up other work from me as well (fixing privacy fence, replacing things around the house, working on my car, and so forth).

I've had them call me up because they were stuck in town due to a car breakdown and what not, and I've happily given them rides to places.

Thing is, they both used to be into drugs, and they both got clean. My impression of them (especially the wife) is that they're hard working, honest people and I wish them the best in life. They're about 4 years from outright owning their house and I'm happy for them. They recently ran into car trouble and I've asked my brother to see if he can find something in their price range (strange as it sounds, his hobby is finding cheap vehicles and getting decent use out of them).

At the end of the day we're all just people trying to get through life. I'm not trying to take advantage or cause harm and I trust they're not trying to take advantage or cause harm. We have our life circumstances and for this moment we're here, together. That sounds a bit like the temporary friend thing from fight club, but in some ways I think it's true.