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Don't ignore the janitor

happychasing.substack.com

171–180 of 286 posts

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#171
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... it means that even when I do say hello or hold a door or whatever I don't get a response. I'm sure they find it condescending. This whole post is kind of condescending TBH.

Are you arguing it is condescending to say hi to custodial staff?

The way I read it they're arguing both that it's condescending to think that they need to be told to say hi to custodial staff, and that the custodial staff might find it condescending for someone to hold a door.

One of the interesting things I've found while travelling is the different forms of interaction with customer service, hospitality, custodial staff. US tends to have a 'customer is always right' sickly sweet interactions. China has custodial staff that almost live at the office (the feel of Mum doing the dishes and washing, and that you're almost in their house). France/Paris you always say hello (bon jour) when you enter the store or it's rude. I've never had such "rude" blunt interactions as I did in Sofia, and thought it was me/tourist/english, but no, I witnessed equally gruff dismissive interactions for locals.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#172
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually do, but the reasoning isn't because I am deluding myself into thinking I am being kind to the employees (it is because I am trying to be kind to the customers, by making the food cheaper). I realize you want to be nice to other people, but you should realize you are doing it wrong (or at least doing it to a different set of people than you intended)... as noted, I treat the janitors with respect and don't…

Following the logic here and above, do you make sure to create very large and annoying to clean messes in office spaces / spaces were janitors will clean so that, by the nature of the work, pushes their employer to increase the pay for the job?

No, because 1) in cases where it is a building I am working in/for such a thing is likely to have direct and potentially significant negative blowback on me for increasing the company's costs; 2) in other places many people (I am guessing including yourself) are sufficiently privileged to not see the "us vs. the overlords" dynamic and so look at people who increase these sorts of costs with contempt; and 3) as noted elsewhere in this thread, helping the janitors isn't the only goal: keeping costs low for society IS valuable and so it can be perfectly rational to avoid creating messes you know someone else will have to clean in order to lower the costs on society to clean them... but only if you realize you are not doing this to be nice to the janitors.

Like, the issue I am having with this thread is that a ton of people who seem to have some concept of what the ethical thing to do here is--and I don't even necessarily disagree with the concluding actions!--but I don't think they actually have the perspective to realize that the reasons why those actions might or might not be ethical are completely different from what one might intuitively expect due to the incentive structure of working for a company under capitalism. And so then you are all taking this idea of that ethical conclusion and trying to make me feel shitty for how I treat the janitors somehow when the janitors are categorically not the people you are helping with your ethical outcomes :/. Yes: the result of this thought process applied en masse would be horribly inefficient and seemingly costly for a ton of people, but the janitors would call you a hero as they are paid by the hour.

My context: while I myself am yet another privileged software developer, I am also a strongly-left-leaning elected government official who often has deep heart to hearts with friends who are union organizers... people who fight daily on behalf of people in these situations, and it is when I channel them--not some heartless asshole who refuses to even look at janitors--that I feel most strongly about these issues. The idea that you are doing someone a favor by going out of your way to not help them in their personal life but to do part of their job is just such a strange thought process to me... I have houseless people in the area CONSTANTLY asking for work, and if there were tasks that needed to get done maybe we could hire them to the beautification program we're in charge of (which explicitly works with houseless employees); so sure: if you care about them, you might literally litter our streets with trash ;P.

The reason to maybe not cause messes (and I don't, because while I am not an asshole to the janitors I am not optimizing for them over everyone else) is not to be kind to these people in the way the person I replied to seems to think: it is because it is an inefficiency--a cost to the system as a whole--and that cost to the system will be born by someone else, whether it be tracked directly back to you or indirectly cause increased costs for food or other staples. The fewer people who work at supermarkets or restaurants, the cheaper food will be--your taxes are paying for our beautification program, so your taxes might be lower if there is less work to be done--but this comes at a disproportionate cost to the people who relied on those jobs, so don't think you are doing them the favor... if you were truly wanting to do them a favor, you would, in fact, do this awkward thing of trying to cause messes.

What I don't do, though: go out of my way to clean up messes caused by other people when I know someone else has a job to clean them. Example: I now no longer clean streets myself if I walk past a pile of trash... I pull out an app on my phone and take a photo of the trash so the aforementioned local beautification program sends a person out who is excited to be paid money and the program can show that it is being successful to the community and thereby people will be OK with the taxes being paid for it. The person who was sent out to pick up the trash gets to have the dignity of a job instead of me handing them money (which I also do!!! but they really hate taking the money from me like that, and it frankly isn't scalable or fairly allocated anyway). Meanwhile, I spend my time working on software or whatever I do which earns more money than this person was paid to pick up the trash in the same amount of time, which helps bring money into the area to pay for the local taxes. This is almost entirely a win/win/win.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#173
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could actually try to help the janitor by NOT doing that so they still can get paid to do it. These are people who are often looking for hours and picking up multiple jobs and you seriously think you are helping them by doing literally any of their job for them? (FWIW, I also haven't ever experienced a janitor asking me to do this kind of stuff for them and I am actually the only person at the various building…

> Or you could actually try to help the janitor by NOT doing that so they still can get paid to do it. Sounds to me like a very inefficient way of accomplishing tasks. Marginal cost of everyone doing their own simple task is less than the cost of employing a janitor. Furthering the logic, we should litter the place for more janitors to get employed.

I agree! But the person at the top of this thread wanted to help the janitor, and that's not what they are doing: they are, at best, helping the people who pay for the janitor, whether you want to model that as the company or the customers of the company. And that's a reasonable (or even "noble") thing to optimize for (though if you work at the company and are being paid to do something else with your time or mental effort you aren't helping the company either as you are just reassigning peoples' roles that were carefully chosen), but it simply isn't the same thing as helping the janitor, which is what everyone seems to think they are doing. You 100% shouldn't be an asshole to the janitor: they are people like you and you shouldn't avert your eyes or ignore their presence as if they are a pariah... but I think if you talk to them for a while you will realize more of them than you seem to think understand how this works as they are often a unionized position and their organizers are making sure everyone knows to keep work up and not tolerate their job being redistributed to others.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#174
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It seems to be a result of they as a gender neutral singular pronoun. Which has a long history. Here oneself also works, perhaps even is more correct, but with the increased prominence of them as a singular pronoun, I can see why people write it like this.

No post body was provided.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#175

PSA for the younger reader and / or parents: Try being the janitor. I was effectively the janitor for a public ice arena outside Detroit from the age of 14 to 16. I cleaned public restrooms, as well as hockey locker rooms. I emptied large trash bins (thankfully before recycling was mainstream). I cleaned below the bleachers. That was probably the worst. But, if I may say, that experience helped mold me, for the bette…

Over in Japan, it's quite common in schools for the students to clean the classrooms, club rooms, hallways, and occasionally also the restrooms themselves. The schools mandate it as part of the curriculum, since it teaches vital life skills and builds character.

The schools have janitors on their payroll, of course.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#176
How about something much simpler, throw your used paper towels INTO the garbage can in the bathroom. I am amazed by the number of supposed professionals that leave them on the counter or just on the floor. It boggles my mind how hard this is for some people.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1990s, when the former USSR had gone to shit, you could meet a lot of menial workers from the ex-Soviet republics who had academic degrees and could hold a conversation to prove it. I studied mathematics in Prague in 1996-2003. More than once I met a janitor or a taxi driver who, albeit with a heavy Russian or Ukrainian accent, knew what a uniformly continuous function was and what does the Chinese Remainder T…

I hope those days don't come back. This migration wave hopefully can get jobs more according to their area of expertise.

The scale has changed, but those days have never really ended. I'm from a Caribbean country that people are usually quite eager to leave. I've seen numerous cases of people with post-secondary education and jobs to go with it leave for the US or UK and end up doing "unskilled" labor because their qualifications don't carry across.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#178
post #106

I try to avoid strangers. If I was a janitor I wouldn't want people bothering me, especially because they feel bad for me or they feel guilty. You shouldn't be rude and I have no problem with and do nod/smile at cleaning/security/service staff but I am not good at smalltalk or whatever so I treat everyone the same and ignore people unless I know them and have something to talk about. I really dislike insincere or for…

The weird part for me is that people don't say good morning for instance. I can see small-talk not being appropriate in many situations, and it's just stealing peoples time. It's the lack of acknowledgement I find weird. As you say, just a smile and or nod, that's fine. I'd have to force myself pretty hard to ignore anyone when coming into the office in the morning. It's not forced politeness or insincere, is it what…

I'm guessing you don't come from a big city?

I find the more rural you get, the more people will actually interact.

Here in the UK there's a definite north south divide too.

Relevant: https://youtu.be/PT0ay9u1gg4

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#179
post #141

Is...being decent to everyone regardless of job status in life a new thing? Has tech come so far that we have to re-teach ourselves the basics and then brag about how we smile at "service staff"? Up next in a techbro blog post: "I have discovered that money doesn't buy happiness, and that being an asshole isn't a good thing."

> Is...being decent to everyone regardless of job status in life a new thing? It is to some people. > Has tech come so far that we have to re-teach ourselves the basics and then brag about how we smile at "service staff"? Nothing about this is at all unique to tech.

> Nothing about this is at all unique to tech.

I'd assume there's a lot more new money in tech than in traditional industry?

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#180

PSA for the younger reader and / or parents: Try being the janitor. I was effectively the janitor for a public ice arena outside Detroit from the age of 14 to 16. I cleaned public restrooms, as well as hockey locker rooms. I emptied large trash bins (thankfully before recycling was mainstream). I cleaned below the bleachers. That was probably the worst. But, if I may say, that experience helped mold me, for the bette…

Over in Japan, it's quite common in schools for the students to clean the classrooms, club rooms, hallways, and occasionally also the restrooms themselves. The schools mandate it as part of the curriculum, since it teaches vital life skills and builds character. The schools have janitors on their payroll, of course.

When did this policy come about?
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