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Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

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Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#21
Free speech is a right that is balanced against other rights and things like inciting violence can limit free speech. I don't think many people on this forum believes in unlimited free speech.

I think the issue is whether Cloudflare("CF"), as an internet infrastructure, should be involved in balancing free speech with other rights and if so, what kind of bar should they have before deciding to act.

Looking at the issue in this way, your argument that:

> Cloudflair's decision to stop doing business with kiwifarms is a step towards free speech, not away.

may be right and most people would agree. But some people may be more concerned about how CF has reached that decision and the future implication of this action. After all, there is a possibility that CF may have gotten this one right even with inconsistent reasoning/ shaky evidence. In that case, there may be future cases where CF jumps the gun too fast.

Some are also scared about how much (perceived) power CF has over current internet infrastructure. This is understandable as CF is a company and their decision making process isn't as transparent as public system. But if there wasn't such dominance by CF and it was merely one of many competitors, this wouldn't be a big contention.

TL;DR People are arguing about different things: short term result and long term implication. You can agree with the banning of Kiwifarm but still be concerned about how CF reached that conclusion.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#23
post #10

I agree with you. Cloudflare is an independent entity and is within its rights to refuse service for businesses that are unsavory (including kiwifarms due to supporting harassment, propagandists, illegal substances, or whatever it chooses). I am surprised radicalized keyboard warriors on the internet feel better about the situation and their lives when they harass, SWAT, and dox others. I am sorry you've experienced…

> ...within its rights to refuse service for businesses that are unsavory...

- Labor union organizers and socialists used to be considered unsavory.

- The civil rights movement used to be considered unsavory.

- LGBTQ people used to be considered really unsavory, pre-1970s.

Guess we know what the parent poster and those that agree with them would have said about businesses refusing service to those movements had they been around then.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#24

Definitely a shocking amount of support for what appears to be a cesspool of bigotry. Sorry, you dont feel welcome anymore. This site has had an unfortunate devolution in this regard since around the time Trump got elected, and certainly by the time Jan. 6 happened.

I hope you’re not suggesting to limit my ability to view any internet bigotry I feel like viewing.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#25
post #5

Incitement is already illegal. SWATing and making true threats are also illegal. What we need is not nuking entire websites from orbit because they have bad actors, but actually upholding the law via law enforcement. Private corporations should not be the arbiters of online speech. Freedom of speech is also our freedom to read or freedom to hear. When tech giants delete entire websites from the internet, we've all lo…

This is my opinion, through and through. Regardless of your views on regulating companies (breaking up cloudflare because it's too important vs not doing that), I believe we can mostly agree that companies should not be making moral decisions on what content we should access. Moral decisions are a two-edged sword: we may all agree kiwifarms is bad and should be blocked because we agree trans people have a right to li…

> It's my opinion that governments should ultimately be the deciders of what goes. Kiwifarms is allegedly committing several crimes. What should be investigated is: why did law enforcement not get involved sooner? After all, Cloudflare can be ordered to stop serving a person or legal entity by a court of law. So why hasn't that happened?

I agree ideally, but if you always wait for literal legal orders, any moderation would take _ages_. So you'd always need some sort of value judgement on the provider's part to interpret the law as they see it and act.

EDIT: not to mention governments are also putting pressure on providers to act fast.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#26
post #10

I agree with you. Cloudflare is an independent entity and is within its rights to refuse service for businesses that are unsavory (including kiwifarms due to supporting harassment, propagandists, illegal substances, or whatever it chooses). I am surprised radicalized keyboard warriors on the internet feel better about the situation and their lives when they harass, SWAT, and dox others. I am sorry you've experienced…

Thank you, it really does help. This post was me releasing my frustration. I've censored myself a lot more than usual throughout kiwifarm's deplatforming, for fear when they regroup they may attack those who were critical of them. I worry I'd be near the top of the list because I'm also trans.

But I don't want them to win by being silent.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#27
post #24

Definitely a shocking amount of support for what appears to be a cesspool of bigotry. Sorry, you dont feel welcome anymore. This site has had an unfortunate devolution in this regard since around the time Trump got elected, and certainly by the time Jan. 6 happened.

I hope you’re not suggesting to limit my ability to view any internet bigotry I feel like viewing.

God forbid /s

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#28
post #10

I agree with you. Cloudflare is an independent entity and is within its rights to refuse service for businesses that are unsavory (including kiwifarms due to supporting harassment, propagandists, illegal substances, or whatever it chooses). I am surprised radicalized keyboard warriors on the internet feel better about the situation and their lives when they harass, SWAT, and dox others. I am sorry you've experienced…

> ...within its rights to refuse service for businesses that are unsavory... - Labor union organizers and socialists used to be considered unsavory. - The civil rights movement used to be considered unsavory. - LGBTQ people used to be considered really unsavory, pre-1970s. Guess we know what the parent poster and those that agree with them would have said about businesses refusing service to those movements had they…

Your point, even though it is US-centric whataboutism, is quite correct. A private venue that operates as a host has rights to discriminate among whom it hosts. Even more so, "unsavory" here is clearly a placeholder for "legally questionable if not outright banned" rather than "social underdog some people in society feel superior to." Trolls farms are typically anything but social underdogs.

But let's step into your oranges-compared-to-apples example set. What your reductionist, presentist whataboutism misses is that the social "unsavoriness" was eventually seen to be unethical by society writ-large. However, KiwiFarms, as a vehicle for harassment against the ideal American underdogs, hasn't a leg to stand on and will remain as socially (and legally) unsavory.

Therefore, your conclusion, that the OP and those that agree would have refused service universally to Labor, Civil Rights activists and supporters, and LGBTQ, is flawed. Perhaps ironically, the OP and those that agree with the comments are contained in the union of the latter two categories anyhow.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#29

Definitely a shocking amount of support for what appears to be a cesspool of bigotry. Sorry, you dont feel welcome anymore. This site has had an unfortunate devolution in this regard since around the time Trump got elected, and certainly by the time Jan. 6 happened.

If you're trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater, we'd be remiss if we didn't tell you that's not a good thing to do, no matter how bigoted the bathwater is.

If you interpret that as "support for ... a cesspool of bigotry", well, sorry but that says more about your blinkered worldview than it does about anyone else.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#30

Definitely a shocking amount of support for what appears to be a cesspool of bigotry. Sorry, you dont feel welcome anymore. This site has had an unfortunate devolution in this regard since around the time Trump got elected, and certainly by the time Jan. 6 happened.

If you're trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater, we'd be remiss if we didn't tell you that's not a good thing to do, no matter how bigoted the bathwater is. If you interpret that as "support for ... a cesspool of bigotry", well, sorry but that says more about your blinkered worldview than it does about anyone else.

> We'd be remiss if we didn't tell you that's not a good thing to do, no matter how bigoted the bathwater is.

I understand what freedom of speech is. I've weighed the options and still can't see how you could defend that site. No need to be patronizing.

In any case, the post has been flagged. You win.

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