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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#831

Post by nemo44x »

bastardoperator wrote: post #725
cowtools wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

The first amendment is designed to protect people from government. That's it. It's beyond clear in its text. Courts have ruled time and time again finding speech that harms people is most certainly not protected. We have laws that deal with slander, libel, harassment, and speech that does not pass the clear and present danger clause does meet the criteria for "free" speech. I don't understand how anyone can look at t…

Of course but it’s about promoting a culture of free speech. It’s important. And of course that doesn’t mean absolute. If speech is being used to create an imminent threat then it should be limited during that time. But hurt feelings, feeling “unsafe”, being insulted, being offended, blasphemy, etc. are not reasons to limit the culture of free speech. It creates more harm long term than it solves.

Of course different communities that moderate can choose what that means to them. But there is a bad precedent when global bans are implemented, especially when it’s arbitrary. This appeal to authority, like begging a lordship is not the right direction.

What happens when inevitably the authority is not someone we agree with? Precedent has been set. We encoded into law free speech for this reason. We’d be wise to promote it as cultural value too.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#832

Post by tsol »

forty wrote: post #740
akira2501 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DDoS is a crime. Saying racist things isn't. We shouldn't blur the line here.

That probably depends a lot of the country. Both are illegal here in France (for racism, if it's insulting or hateful in particular)

If that counts, there are a bunch of reddit subs that are dedicated to hating Muslims, fat people, Indians, the religious(which as a Muslim is just full of casual racism and Muslim hate). No one seems to care. I don't know why we don't get these responses for minority issues. Racism has been a problem on the internet since the beginning and there is never such a push as these issues.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#833

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

jbuhbjlnjbn wrote: post #801
bioemerl wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point it will be too late. Censorship like this creeps on forward until everyone is scared to speak up against it and then it clamps down hard enough that no one is able to speak up against it.

History has told that lesson a thousand times. Still, there are ever new people that seemingly lack the capacity to recognize the lesson (my guess is, the minority), or, for arguments sake, chose to ignore it (my guess, the majority).

That’s because it’s a garbage argument disproved by exemple.

Most of Europe has strong law regarding hate speech and didn’t devolve into an awful fascist tyranny. A free country doesn’t have to tolerate everything.

Meanwhile their allegedly incredible laws didn’t stop the USA to conduct kidnapping, jailing without trial and for indefinite duration and torture of dozens.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#834

Post by charcircuit »

sonofhans wrote: post #731
charcircuit wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Doxing, as in compiling public information about people on the internet did happen, but … There’s no “but” here. This is a common talking point defending this forum — “at least they didn’t explicitly do something worse” — but doxxing is unethical and illegal. Period. This forum encouraged, enabled, and glorified it. > the forums were not about swatting and doing so is against the spirit and the rules of the forums.…

>There’s no “but” here

There is because I wrote it there. But is used to show contrast. I was contrasting how there was doxing and there wasn't swatting.

>doxxing is unethical and illegal

It may be unethical to you, but it is ethical to me. Doxxing is not illegal in the United States.

>This forum encouraged, enabled, and glorified it.

I see the documentation and preservation as a good thing. Not everyone has to share the same opinion as me. People who don't want to see this stuff can not visit the site.

>This is bullshit designed to evade responsibility with a wink and a nod

It doesn't glorify it anymore than wikipedia glorifies the historical events it has articles about.

>The forum provides the means

That doesn't mean the forum should be responsible. If Is someone googles a person's name and their address shows up does that mean Google is responsible for the person being swatted? In my opinion, no it isn't.

>glorifies the result

The forum can't control how people respond to the event. No one is forcing people to commented negatively or positively or even at all about it. Even without the Kiwi Farms it would likely be talked about somewhere else.

>they don’t explicitly setup a SWAT autodialer

They don't implicitly do this either. The community in general doesn't swat people. Yes, I'm sure you can find some exception, but I don't believe a community should be killed just because there are some bad people who claim to be a part of it in it.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

A link isn't an argument. Are you trying to say that free speech is bad and that we should censor people to avoid the subset of acceptable speech from changing? I personally am pro free speech and anti censorship so we disagree on these things if that was what you were trying to say.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#835

Post by fluoridation »

elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#836

Post by tsol »

ngetchell wrote: post #771
smsm42 wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or his children or his home We're way, way past that standard. We're way past when ACLU was defending Nazi's right to speak and were proud of it. Nobody would even think about doing this now. In fact, if you defend a "wrong" client as a lawyer, you may lose your whole career now and become unperson among your peers. If you say a wrong thing publi…

The ACLU would fight for the Nazi marches against the government. These are private companies adjusting their priorities as a result of other people using their free speech rights.

This isn't an uncommon view; others have observed that it's becoming unpopular to espouse free speech for all. There's an active pushback against, say, protecting the rights of racists. As an Indian Muslim I don't like what they say, but I realize it's only because of such free speech that people like me can live our lives freely in this country today. There are still a lot of people that hate me and I see it daily on reddit and Twitter.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn...

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#837

Post by LudwigNagasena »

burnte wrote: post #675
cowtools wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. Should be persecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT. At no point has any nation held that all people should be able to say whatever they want at any time with zero repercussions from anywhere. You can yell in a crowded theater, an…

What is “the government” in a democracy?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#838

Post by sealeck »

cowtools wrote: post #830
sealeck wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're using the internet to try and threaten and intimidate people then yes, people will try to unplug you from it.

You could conceivably regard almost any comment as "threatening and intimidating". On a larger, more serious scale, almost every world power uses the internet to distribute propaganda with the effect of "threatening and intimidating" other nations. There is some degree of "threatening and intimidating" in almost every discussion of politics. The US Gov might consider Wikileaks to be "threatening and intimidating". Uk…

> You could conceivably regard almost any comment as "threatening and intimidating"

Of course, but I think a threat to kill someone with a bomb is unambiguously threatening and intimidating whereas "I think this person's ideology is terrible and disagree with it" is not.

> The US Gov might consider Wikileaks to be "threatening and intimidating". Ukraine "threatens and intimidates" Russia and vice versa. Corporations "threaten and intimidate" their workers, while unions "threaten and intimidate" corporations.

You're kind of lumping in a bunch of separate concerns - a war between Russia and Ukraine is not the same as a forum of neo Nazis and neither are whistleblowing or labour relations disputes. Could you explain why you think they're related (as I can't personally see how they are)?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#839

Post by rowanG077 »

elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

It's not about who is more worthy of protection. And viewing it that way is incredibly dangerous. It's about what cost you are willing to pay for that protection.

Ex: we have a pretty clear innocent until proven guilty justice system. This means there will always be people who are guilty who will not be punished. We can make that less likely by just throwing every suspect into jail. This protects the general public better then the current system. But most will agree that the cost of this is too high. So we don't do it. That doesn't mean we don't want the protect the public from criminals.

The people who are against cloudflare banning kiwifarms aren't debating for who to protect. They are debating about the cost of that protection.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#840

Post by elcamino44 »

cowtools wrote: post #806
elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

I don't think the goal of KF is to de-platform individuals, but merely to discredit them by publishing demeaning information and rumors about them. So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship. "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. If you ask me, what they ought to do…

> "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity.

Isn’t this the exact same thing? Discouraging someone from conducting speech under their public identity is taking away their audience and community. It’s not removing their ability to speak, but it’s hard to see how it’s not restricting their free speech.

And in the exact same way, no one has removed the ability to speak of any KiwiFarms member (or indeed of their community as a whole). It’s simply been made harder for them to conduct their speech under their current public identity.

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