Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#741

Post by cowtools » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #714

cowtools wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

> people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs Who is being persecuted? For which beliefs? And how are they being persecuted?

No one in this specific situation is being persecuted for their beliefs:

The coordinator of the DDoS attack (Who I am apparently not allowed to say the name of or my comment will be instantly flagged after posting) is being persecuted for their shady history and actions, which includes being a prostitute and sponsoring the (paralegal?) distribution of transgender hormones to minors.

The KiwiForum is being persecuted for the gossip and personal information that they have been (re-)publishing on the previously mentioned person. As well as some threats like swatting which have allegedly been attributed to them.

Both sides employ a public figurehead who abuses their para-social relationship with their supporters to extract donations from them. So in this sense, the "persecution complex" is an artificial mechanism whereby they drum up support.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#742

Post by phatfish » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#743

Post by smsm42 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:54 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

> Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or his children or his home

We're way, way past that standard. We're way past when ACLU was defending Nazi's right to speak and were proud of it. Nobody would even think about doing this now. In fact, if you defend a "wrong" client as a lawyer, you may lose your whole career now and become unperson among your peers. If you say a wrong thing publicly, your right to make a living will very likely be taken away, and your physical security would be in serious danger. Your home - if you can keep it while being denied income - surely. But in some countries they government also may lock your bank accounts. Hope you don't have a mortgage and have enough cash stashed to pay your utility bills, because otherwise your house is going bye-bye.

As for jail, no, the US is not there yet. Other countries on the West already very much so, so I wonder for how long that one would hold. After all, the government is already talking about a "clear and present danger" from their political opponents - and this is not a random set of words. This is the legal standard that until 1969 was being used to jail people for saying wrong things. So we may be just one SCOTUS ruling away from going back there. Current SCOTUS may not be willing to do it, but judges are retiring, they are mortal, and then there's talk about court packing... The ice is very thin.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#744

Post by dxuh » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:54 PM UTC

phillipcarter wrote: post #289

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Good to see it.

So if someone doesn't like what you say (and I presume there are plenty such people), do they have the right to DDoS you too? Just to be clear this is of course not a threat or anything. I really want to know when you think that speech becomes punishable and who is supposed to decide that.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#745

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:55 PM UTC

squabbles wrote: post #99

_dain_ wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kiwifarms is not a "nazi website". There's a whole subforum devoted to documenting and mocking the alt right and its weird personalities.

Two of the "lolcows" prominently featured on the front page are Ethan Ralph and Nick Fuentes. They're not nazis (they're antisocial morons), but anybody who would call the KiwiFarms a nazi site would call them nazis. The News's approach to Fuentes has been to pearlclutch and basically make him look cool to the young guys he recruits for his political cult. If anyone remembers all the embarrassing stuff that came out…

Nick Fuentes is definitely a nazi, which is in no way incompatible with him being an antisocial moron. Just because KF mocks Fuentes doesn't mean they're the only or even a canonical source of embarrassing info about him. Also, anyone who studies extremism can tell you that every extremist movement is rife with infighting and petty interpersonal rivalries.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#746

Post by danShumway » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

richbell wrote: post #397

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve read some hilariously out-of-touch comments on this site, but this might take the cake. You know what else happens on a monthly basis? Normal paychecks. Only some ivory tower conservative could believe people on welfare or disability are throwing money at tech nerd services to bring them down. What an incredible victim complex.

> I’ve read some hilariously out-of-touch comments on this site, but this might take the cake. You know what else happens on a monthly basis? Normal paychecks. IIRC the context of that quote was that Kiwi Farms has/had several people constantly filing frivolous lawsuits against it who were literally on welfare/government support.

I thought the GP comment was wild, but "I just got my welfare check, time to hire a lawyer" is an even stranger take.

Suing people is unpleasant and expensive and tends to favor people with money who can afford to hire effective lawyers, very few of whom will work for so little that they can be afforded on welfare. If people on welfare are suing someone, it's probably because they actually have a grievance with them and feel legally wronged, regardless of whether their lawsuits are frivolous or not.

I don't think anyone on welfare is thinking, "the most enjoyable way for me to spend this money is to get involved in a legal process." If a lot of Kiwi Farms lawsuits come from people who are jobless and on disability, I think the more likely conclusion is that it might have something to do with who the site's common targets were.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#747

Post by LightHugger » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

Febra33 wrote: post #629

bioemerl wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are doing something criminal, let the courts set them out with an established procedure and a a group of informed jurors instead of mob rule.

There's no mob rule. A private company decided to stop servicing that filth because it would hurt their profits. There's nothing freer than this.

Odd, for some reason i'm getting the urge to disconnect your internet service, because it would hurt my profits, and i decided your opinion is dangerous to free society.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#748

Post by ChicagoDave » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

mise_en_place wrote: post #707

ChicagoDave wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got five kids. If any of them were trans, I'd support them connecting with whatever community they could find. Some people were born into the wrong body and most kids know it immediately. The dysphoria can happen early. I'm sure there are some kids that make mistakes and try hormone therapy because they think it will make them feel better. The list of reasons they might do this are long and many are related to abuse…

Quoted post unavailable.

Just because someone is transgender, doesn't make them a pedophile, which you know damn well was my point.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#749

Post by ce4 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:57 PM UTC

_dain_ wrote: post #712

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Quoted post unavailable.

You got that wrong. No one was censored by CF, because you dont need CF to have an internet appearance. If anything, it's the DDoS attacks that are censoring KF. But in the end it just got more expensive for KF to speak.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#750

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:57 PM UTC

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #643

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue Nitpick: it is a free speech issue. It’s just not a First Amendment concern. Your broader point stands: rights must balance; it’s perfectly fair for the freedom of assembly to peacefully balance someone freedom of speech.

I agree - you have the right to not go some place where you don't want to be. You do not have the right to convince a fire department to stop protecting a house so you can burn it down in peace. To think this situation is anything BUT that is pure hypocrisy.

> this situation is anything BUT that is pure hypocrisy

Fires kill people. As do bombs. As in bomb threats levied to intimidate someone into not speaking. Nobody is dying because Kiwi Farms is being DDOS’d. If there is a side antithetical to free speech in this discussion, it’s the group threatening to assault people whose speech they disagree with. Not those asking them to take their business elsewhere.