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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#781

Post by MichaelCollins »

jamincan wrote: post #751
MichaelCollins wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Didn't he previously say he took down the nazi site because they were saying that the reason they weren't taken down was that he agreed with them? And about that decision, he said this: > Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick them off the Internet. I called our legal…

If he doesn't think that Cloudflare should hold any responsibility for illegal or criminal activity using their services, then I welcome them being treated as a utility and subject to all of the regulation that that would entail.

If he doesn't think he should have the power he has, he should step away from it. It's not as though he's Claudius, an inadvertent emperor who believes in the Republic but is afraid of being murdered if he lets go of the reins. He's free to quit any time he likes and take this weight off his mind. If he has qualms about handing this power to anybody else, he shouldn't have accumulated this much power in the first place.

Truth is he likes the money, and the power. That's why he has it.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#782

Post by vintermann »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #532
cowtools wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> since when is "doxxing" a crime? The focus on doxxing is odd. There were SWATs. There were credible bomb threats. Since when is there a public obligation to sell your work to domestic terrorists?

The swats were not verified as coming from KF, and they said they oppose that sort of thing. I noticed that some of the people KF had threads on, were targeted specifically because they overstep the boundaries of what KF considers acceptable (for instance the "Ralph Retort" blogger).

You could still argue that Kiwifarms still "enables" people who are even worse than them, in the same way that certain glossy magazines enable harassment of various celebrities. Certainly Kiwifarms themselves get worked up over people who merely "enable" bad things, so they don't have that much non-hypocritical leg to stand on. Still, we used to defended those magazines for free speech reasons, and for the sake of the few times they reveal something genuinely in the public interest.

(The "credible bomb threats" was IMO not very credible, it was a fresh account claiming to be able to commandeer out Irish paramilitaries to bomb multiple sites in minutes. And the post was reported instantly, and removed within minutes. That's something that could happen to all sites that allow public comments.)

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#783

Post by smsm42 »

ngetchell wrote: post #771
smsm42 wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or his children or his home We're way, way past that standard. We're way past when ACLU was defending Nazi's right to speak and were proud of it. Nobody would even think about doing this now. In fact, if you defend a "wrong" client as a lawyer, you may lose your whole career now and become unperson among your peers. If you say a wrong thing publi…

The ACLU would fight for the Nazi marches against the government. These are private companies adjusting their priorities as a result of other people using their free speech rights.

Would they? I don't think they would any more. Any recent examples?

> as a result of other people using their free speech rights.

Running a DDoS is really stretching the definition of "using their free speech rights", I think. But firing you from a job or closing your bank account for saying wrong things is "private companies adjusting their priorities" too. I wonder how long you could make a living if you can't use banking services, or phone services, or internet services - all of which are run by private companies? How long it would be before CPS shows at you door to take your children - because private utility companies refused to serve you and it's not safe for them to be there anymore? You can take that "private companies adjusting their priorities" pretty far. If you think in this situation you still have free speech because you can still stand on a public square and yell into the sky - you definition of freedom of speech is flawed, and honestly, pretty useless in practice.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#784

Post by elcamino44 »

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same.

The key differences are Kiwifarms is targeting individuals personally. And that they’re doing it kind of randomly, for the lulz. Whereas their main opponents here are targeting a company/community, and acting in self-defence.

I know who I think is more worthy of protection.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#785

Post by fluoridation »

TechSquidTV wrote: post #623
philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

I dont understand this post, it seems so backwards. Are we upset that a social harm has been deplatformed by a private company by simply choosing to not serve them? No one has prevented Kiwifarms from being on the internet, in fact that isn't even really possible. Free speech is working as intended. There is legally nothing wrong with saying what you want on the internet, but that doesn't mean everyone else needs to…

Let's hope you abide by this standard if the same happens to a site you care about.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#786

Post by wickedsickeune »

dxuh wrote: post #744
phillipcarter wrote: post #289

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Good to see it.

So if someone doesn't like what you say (and I presume there are plenty such people), do they have the right to DDoS you too? Just to be clear this is of course not a threat or anything. I really want to know when you think that speech becomes punishable and who is supposed to decide that.

No, DDoS is a crime. If you support CF dropping KF as a customer because CF doesn't like what KF say, the equivalent argument is that anyone who doesn't like CF has the right to drop CF as DDoS protection.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#787

Post by [deleted] »

agentdrtran wrote: post #552
Cyberdog wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Doxxing, sometimes; swatting, no. Posting plans for any sort of real-life harassment on KF will get you mocked by other users and possibly banned. then why does it happen all the time?

[deleted]

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#788

Post by jameslars »

Cyberdog wrote: post #530
ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Quoted post unavailable.

One thing I haven't figured out in all the replies defending KF is WHY "making fun of weirdos" requires knowing & posting their address & phone number and keeping tabs on their physical location.

This seems like a pretty easy line to draw to start to show they're serious about keeping things "look but don't touch." Allowing doxxing seems akin to "won't someone rid me of the meddlesome priest" territory.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#789

Post by [deleted] »

ivraatiems wrote: post #390
philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

[deleted]

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#790

Post by JumpCrisscross »

vintermann wrote: post #782
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since when is "doxxing" a crime? The focus on doxxing is odd. There were SWATs. There were credible bomb threats. Since when is there a public obligation to sell your work to domestic terrorists?

The swats were not verified as coming from KF, and they said they oppose that sort of thing. I noticed that some of the people KF had threads on, were targeted specifically because they overstep the boundaries of what KF considers acceptable (for instance the "Ralph Retort" blogger). You could still argue that Kiwifarms still "enables" people who are even worse than them, in the same way that certain glossy magazines…

> we used to defended those magazines for free speech reasons, and for the sake of the few times they reveal something genuinely in the public interest

There was editorial control. Someone to be held accountable, and someone making decisions knowing that. User-generated content is different. I am less certain of any prescription for the problem than I am in the difference being salient. Heuristics that work on print media aren’t easily translated to social.

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