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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#291
post #149

It's an interesting problem - designing a basic forum that can survive DDoS attacks without a centralized protector such as cloudflare.

This is not too hard of a problem, but the issue is that it's expensive. You can likely get to ~100k packets/second of forum serving + DDoS attack filtering on one core, but you will eventually saturate your (likely 1 gbps or less) upstream connection. The only real mitigation to this is to have a much bigger upstream connection than you need.

Edit - clarifying that 100k pps per core would only be achievable if the vast majority of the traffic (>95%) could be filtered out.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#293
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal? I think you mean PR team. They realized it would have an impact on income. There was obviously no legal issue.

On income? How would this work? As a CF customer, I am far more concerned with a policy or precedent of capriciously cutting off customers than a policy of defending "bad" customers.

> On income? How would this work?

Cloudflare is a public company. I can tell you from being in a position to know this at a small company, but the "vendor review / procurement process" that happens to acquire a new service is non-trivial and usually offers several checkpoints to make sure that you're only onboarding vendors that meet strict criteria. One of those criteria is "not being embroiled in an obviously bad PR scandal easily revealed by a basic Google search."

CloudFlare is public and that means that their shareholders have the final say, not the individual customers. If shareholders see that CloudFlare's revenue is declining or that key customers are leaving, and there's an obvious reason why that's happening, well, that's the answer to who has the most say.

The whole operational plan that @SleepingGiants had during the Trump administration was to systematically identify corporate links and associations, and to highlight them to PR and legal teams who knew how this worked. "Cancellation" works not because individuals are easily moved by emotional arguments. It works because most companies answer to shareholders, and most shareholders care about value and growth. The company has a fiduciary duty to drive value for shareholders. When those stars align, obvious reasons why value is being artificially capped don't become "hard decisions." They become easy ways to increase value.

There are very few companies that can successfully hold an ideology. When they do hold an ideology, that ideology is usually aligned with some market force. Apple advertises privacy as its ideology because it's seemingly aligned with shareholder value. The ideology becomes expensive or even net-negative commensurate with the value being driven.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#294

It’s almost like there are some behaviors we collectively won’t tolerate and if you engage in them people will pull out all the stops to bring you down. Act like an asshole and you end up getting taken down. Who could have guessed?

This argument is too general. "Majority dislike what you do (even if not illegal) -> can pull out all stops to bring you down" is a very bad principle. Just look at the treatment of gay people in the 50s.

Asshole is also pretty subjective.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#295

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

Whoop tee doo. I've seen dozens of livestreamed murders on Instagram Live and Facebook Live. Reddit has /r/chiraqology where there are hundreds of videos of gang bangers and drill rappers beefing with each other and shooting at each other, and commenters celebrate the lifestyle and keep detailed ontologies of it all.

Nobody is talking about nuking any of these platforms from existence just because of some isolated illegal incidents.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. Speech is ingrained in American culture on both aisles of the political spectrum until last 5-10 years. It’s way beyond 1st amendment and the technicalities of Government limits. ACLU used to defend KKK’s right to march and express. Liberals used to be extremely pro free speech even reaching across the spectrum in the bowels of right-wing extremism to protect their rights. The fact of the matter i…

> Speech is ingrained in American culture on both aisles of the political spectrum until last 5-10 years. Death threats, fraud, harassment, libel, and other harmful forms of speech have had legal consequences for much longer than that.

So we don't need Cloud Flare or Facebook deciding whose speech is bad, we can use the court system.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#297
post #8

I'm very glad Kiwi Farms is gone. But as a thought experiment, would an IPFS based distributed website survive attacks of this nature? It could be pinned by individual users and gateways and accessed using browser plug-ins. [1] https://ipfs.tech/

I'd be interested to know if the users of the site would be brave and willing enough to pin Kiwi Farm's content to their attributable/personally owned devices... Surely some of the appeal or enablers for the behaviour on there is that someone else is wearing the legal risk of storing it all

I think this is the big flaw of systems like IPFS and BitTorrent. “If you pin it, it will stay online” is all well and good, but if it's a legal risk to keep the content online, you're putting a target on your head. Now, you could make everything encrypted and anonymised, but now you're Freenet (is that what it's called?) and the risk you're hosting e.g. CSAM means nobody wants anything to do with you no matter what you have pinned.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#298

I didn't know about this site until yesterday. After reading the thread that got them took down, I know one thing, I will not be letting my children near discord. I mean, if this is how people act in public[0], I hate to imagine what kind of stuff they are doing in a private discord, away from parents prying eyes. There's no heroes in this story. [0] Bathtub hormones being sold to minors in bright packaging featuring…

> I will not be letting my children near discord.

Isn't this kind of a whack-a-mole approach to things? The internet is full of hazards... are you going to ban everything that comes up?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#299

I didn't know about this site until yesterday. After reading the thread that got them took down, I know one thing, I will not be letting my children near discord. I mean, if this is how people act in public[0], I hate to imagine what kind of stuff they are doing in a private discord, away from parents prying eyes. There's no heroes in this story. [0] Bathtub hormones being sold to minors in bright packaging featuring…

> I will not be letting my children near discord.

Good luck with that. Your children will seek things out on their own, against your will.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That X is not a variable in an infinite domain. "First they came for the Nazis" is how World War II could be described (1), and with the exception of a few misguided sympathizers the story ends well with the destruction of their power structure and hanging of their leadership. Probably worth noting that among the reasons KF just lost their newest DDoS protector is that many Russians are understandably sensitive to Na…

[flagged]

The Germans came for the Nazis. The Weimar Republic was very much in favor of imprisoning them for their (detestable) ideals and proposals. The Nazis were able to parlay this persecution (and Weimar failures) into an increasing share of the electorate and eventually total control.
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