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The Long S

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Re: The Long S

#41

Post by glandium »

don-code wrote: post #40

Tangentially: this answered a long-standing question I've had, why the long S disappeared, which also incidentally served as a great example of how the wrong learning environment can completely kill a child's curiosity. I came across the long S in the fifth grade, if I recall, during some line of learning about colonial American history. The conversation between the teacher and me, in the middle of class, went someth…

What your story tells me is that your teacher didn't know and didn't want to admit it.

Re: The Long S

#42

Post by glandium »

HPsquared wrote: post #30
gumby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also smoother than the sigma, which visually incorporates the fundamental theorem of calculus. In general I’m glad we use Leibniz’s notation and not Newton’s, because my handwriting is messy. Though I did use dot and dot dot in physics long ago.

And the uppercase sigma (Σ) used for summation is basically the Greek 'S' (i.e. S for "Sum"). So it's just another S. Also, the capital pi (Π) used for product notation, is basically the Greek 'P' (i.e. P for "Product").

While we're here about greek trivia: both omicron and omega are a sort of O. Can't figure what kind? Hint: O-micron, O-mega.

Re: The Long S

#43

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #39
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #19

The origin of the German ß is very intuitive once you know that S can look like ſ and Z can look like Ʒ.

Guess what: x.toUpperCase().length === x.length is false when x = 'ß' I guess another falsehood programmers believe about strings is that length is not changed by toUpperCase()!

There is a capitol ẞ now so it will depend on normalization rules.

Re: The Long S

#45

Post by dhosek »

veltas wrote: post #28
b3morales wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there are 'w's in the text. Mixed in the same sentence in one case with a 'vv'. > ...we ſend you here...you receiued the New...therof shal not now... > ...impediments, which hitherto haue long hindered this vvorke...

I would guess it's to justify the text. People would also add/remove unnecessary vowels to fit a line better.

That seems likely. Some early typefaces included wider and narrower versions of some letters to enable justification. Arabic typography does this by allowing, e.g., ﻧـﺪ in place of ﻧﺪ (not a real word, in case you’re puzzling over it, I know more about the letters than the language), where there is an extension to the connecting line between letters.

I think, that Gutenberg’s type had multiple versions of letters for this purpose, but I’m going by vague decades-old memories now.

Re: The Long S

#46

Post by aliqot »

glandium wrote: post #41
don-code wrote: post #40

Tangentially: this answered a long-standing question I've had, why the long S disappeared, which also incidentally served as a great example of how the wrong learning environment can completely kill a child's curiosity. I came across the long S in the fifth grade, if I recall, during some line of learning about colonial American history. The conversation between the teacher and me, in the middle of class, went someth…

What your story tells me is that your teacher didn't know and didn't want to admit it.

This was my impression as well. The older I get the more I appreciate someone who can admit they don't know something.

Re: The Long S

#47

Post by glandium »

aliqot wrote: post #46
glandium wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What your story tells me is that your teacher didn't know and didn't want to admit it.

This was my impression as well. The older I get the more I appreciate someone who can admit they don't know something.

I don't know how old your story is, but one thing that I can see factoring in is that before recently-ish, it would have been hard to say "it's an interesting question, but I don't know. How about we figure it out?" without spending a large amount of time to find the answer.

Re: The Long S

#48

Post by drewzero1 »

p1esk wrote: post #36
veltas wrote: post #29

My theory is typography killed the long s. It was much more visually distinct in handwriting, in type it just looks like an f without a line.

Makes sense. Especially the way it looks in handwritten “congreſs”.

The U.S. Declaration of Independence was my first exposure to the long S. (Or should I say my firſt?)

I read through that, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights from souvenir reproductions in middle school. I was curious about this letter and kept digging until I found out what it was, and what it was for. Later that helped me understand the proper use of the eszett (ß) in German.

Re: The Long S

#49

Post by quadrifoliate »

don-code wrote: post #40

Tangentially: this answered a long-standing question I've had, why the long S disappeared, which also incidentally served as a great example of how the wrong learning environment can completely kill a child's curiosity. I came across the long S in the fifth grade, if I recall, during some line of learning about colonial American history. The conversation between the teacher and me, in the middle of class, went someth…

This is because teachers are themselves graded on standardized test results. Standardized tests don't give a crap about curiosity.

So classroom instruction in the US ends up being mostly about the teachers making sure that their students won't drastically underperform on the standardized test.

Re: The Long S

#50

Post by zarzavat »

contravariant wrote: post #32
HPsquared wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the uppercase sigma (Σ) used for summation is basically the Greek 'S' (i.e. S for "Sum"). So it's just another S. Also, the capital pi (Π) used for product notation, is basically the Greek 'P' (i.e. P for "Product").

Also if anyone knows an alphabet with a nice distinct 'P', please donate it to your local mathematician, there's a great shortage at the moment.

I recommend the Thai alphabet. It has four of them! ป ผ พ ภ

If you want to be really flamboyant you could try Javanese: ꦦ

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