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The Long S

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Re: The Long S

#31

Post by akolbe »

HPsquared wrote: post #30
gumby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also smoother than the sigma, which visually incorporates the fundamental theorem of calculus. In general I’m glad we use Leibniz’s notation and not Newton’s, because my handwriting is messy. Though I did use dot and dot dot in physics long ago.

And the uppercase sigma (Σ) used for summation is basically the Greek 'S' (i.e. S for "Sum"). So it's just another S. Also, the capital pi (Π) used for product notation, is basically the Greek 'P' (i.e. P for "Product").

And Greek too has two versions of the lower-case sigma: σ (whose usage corresponds to that of the long s) and ς for use only in the word-final position (corresponding to the terminal s as distinguished from the long s).

Re: The Long S

#32

Post by contravariant »

HPsquared wrote: post #30
gumby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also smoother than the sigma, which visually incorporates the fundamental theorem of calculus. In general I’m glad we use Leibniz’s notation and not Newton’s, because my handwriting is messy. Though I did use dot and dot dot in physics long ago.

And the uppercase sigma (Σ) used for summation is basically the Greek 'S' (i.e. S for "Sum"). So it's just another S. Also, the capital pi (Π) used for product notation, is basically the Greek 'P' (i.e. P for "Product").

Also if anyone knows an alphabet with a nice distinct 'P', please donate it to your local mathematician, there's a great shortage at the moment.

Re: The Long S

#33

Post by akolbe »

dhosek wrote: post #12

The oldest book in my personal library is from the eighteenth century and frequently talks about the Catholic church ſucking money out of England.

ſuck it and ſee?

Re: The Long S

#34

Post by akolbe »

schroeding wrote: post #9

Fun fact from the German Wikipedia: > The „ſ“ [...] is no violation of (modern German) orthography, since the new [...] spelling rules do not prescribe how they should be implemented allographically. Groſsartig, but please don't, at least if you don't use 𝔅𝔩𝔞𝔠𝔨𝔩𝔢𝔱𝔱𝔢𝔯𝔰! :D

Germans have largely forgotten the rules governing the use of the long s. So when they use 𝔅𝔩𝔞𝔠𝔨𝔩𝔢𝔱𝔱𝔢𝔯𝔰 (𝔉𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯), for example in advertising contexts, they often make miſtakeſ.

Re: The Long S

#35

Post by johannes1234321 »

schroeding wrote: post #9

Fun fact from the German Wikipedia: > The „ſ“ [...] is no violation of (modern German) orthography, since the new [...] spelling rules do not prescribe how they should be implemented allographically. Groſsartig, but please don't, at least if you don't use 𝔅𝔩𝔞𝔠𝔨𝔩𝔢𝔱𝔱𝔢𝔯𝔰! :D

> Groſsartig

The ß is aligature of ſ and z, so maybe Groſzartig, or a little bit different script: Groſʒartig

Re: The Long S

#36

Post by p1esk »

veltas wrote: post #29

My theory is typography killed the long s. It was much more visually distinct in handwriting, in type it just looks like an f without a line.

Makes sense. Especially the way it looks in handwritten “congreſs”.

Re: The Long S

#37

Post by p1esk »

skellyclock wrote: post #2

I bought a 1st edition KJV (1611 reproduction) that had these all throughout. I couldn't make it past the introduction by the 'tranflators'

How much was it? Just curious.

Re: The Long S

#38

Post by krapp »

Also, English used to have the letter thorn (þ) for "th", which typesetters would often just replace with a "y". So all of those signs you see in "medieval" settings using "ye olde whatever" are really just "the olde whatever."

Re: The Long S

#39

Post by quickthrower2 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #19

The origin of the German ß is very intuitive once you know that S can look like ſ and Z can look like Ʒ.

Guess what:

    x.toUpperCase().length === x.length
is false

when

    x = 'ß'
I guess another falsehood programmers believe about strings is that length is not changed by toUpperCase()!

Re: The Long S

#40

Post by don-code »

Tangentially: this answered a long-standing question I've had, why the long S disappeared, which also incidentally served as a great example of how the wrong learning environment can completely kill a child's curiosity.

I came across the long S in the fifth grade, if I recall, during some line of learning about colonial American history. The conversation between the teacher and me, in the middle of class, went something like this:

> Why is the letter S shaped differently?

> If you'd read the sidebar, it says that's the letter S.

> But why is it different?

> It's just an S. We need to move on.

I've never really been curious enough to go look up the Wikipedia article in the ensuing years, but that discourse really stuck with me. Luckily, now that it's been linked here, I _have_ read the Wikipedia article, and have my answer (typesetting). Even if Wikipedia didn't exist in those days, though, it would've been nice to be pointed at an encyclopedia instead of having my question dismissed.

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