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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#181

Post by RestlessMind »

tradertef wrote: post #170
navjack27 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine paying someone in my town where the median income is $39k and the median property value is $87k the same as someone in San Fran where the median income is $120k and the median property value is $1.15M. that would be unfair to everyone in my town who can't work remotely with a tech company that's in that area.

This doesn't make any sense. Your pay should be based on the value you provide to the company you work for.. Not based on whether it is fair to your neighbor or not.

> Your pay should be based on ...

So do you advocate uniform global salaries across different locations in different countries?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#182

Post by stemlord »

whb07 wrote: post #139

Which scenario are we talking about here? Is it: You live in a poor country making $50k-$100k, and the US devs are making $100-200k. You live in a poor country and get paid sub $30-50k, and US gets paid $100k+? I used to live in Ecuador, and the “official” min wage monthly is ~$300USD/mo. So essentially you can hire a full time nanny, cook, etc for sub $1200 easy. That’s never going to happen in the US with less than…

OP said they really don't want to move

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#183

Post by RestlessMind »

neilv wrote: post #150

I see multiple upvoted posts that the pay is based solely on "cost to hire your replacement". But in some companies, after they decide to make an offer, it will be "how much to get you to accept". So that wouldn't be a function of their options so much as a function of your options. As to how the calculus changes when it comes to retention, in your company, I don't know. (Tech companies overall are famous for being g…

> it will be "how much to get you to accept".

I hope my HR department doesn't act like that because it will be suicidal in the long run. Colleagues talk and salary details most certainly are shared. Once someone finds out what other person is making, it is a potential legal landmine because the company is not paying equally for equal work. Just imagine that a man takes a higher salary to accept than a woman. Suddenly there will be charges of sexism. Now play this scenario for other protected categories like race.

Location based pay is legally accepted so companies have nothing to worry about.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#184

Post by therealdrag0 »

version_five wrote: post #83

> even though we do the same work This is dubious. I see a lot of "I'm doing the same as him/her/that level but only getting paid x" and it's often not true. Either in terms of responsibility or expectations (for example nobody really thinks an offshore / outsource provider will deliver the same as in-house) you are probably doing less. The solution is to get the job you are comparing yours to. Edit: this comment pos…

This also applies locally in a single office.

There where times in my life when I thought I was hot shit. And if you only looked at Jira and git, I WAS good, but I was also green and lacked a lot of knowledge and wisdom compared to more experienced coworkers who I assume got paid more.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#185

Post by RestlessMind »

Friday0722 wrote: post #148
mattdeboard wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Alienation from the fruits of your labor. It's disgusting we expect people to tolerate it, and act like it's not a totally optional choice by management to exploit labor resources to get a better return on investment for the already wealthy. A modern take on colonization.

On the other hand, the only reason the company hired someone overseas was to save money. They would not have even considered these candidates if they weren't hugely cheaper. Instead, the company would have hired from the local labor market instead. What the submitter should be asking themselves, is whether they can pull a higher wage working from their current location with any other company. If they can do that, the…

> On the other hand, the only reason the company hired someone overseas was to save money.

Ding ding ding - we have the winner here. In my company, all new headcount is from cheaper countries. We are no longer hiring in the US.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#186

Post by jlkuester7 »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #103
swatcoder wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. Only in an imaginary world of perfect information and labor liquidity, which is about as far from what we have (and could have) as can be. Location-adjusted pay for remote US workers is indeed a social norm, proposed by some firms and accepted by enough of labor for it to work for them. It persists mostly because it exists and because there’s no org…

I'm emotionally with you, however the OP is right in that the GP most likely doesn't have any options other than quitting and going to a company that doesn't do this OP is also correct in that the following is how HR at almost every large company thinks about comp: 1. Comp is usually not set by a Hiring Manager and is specifically based on "comparable" which is based on job type and location. 2. Job type and location…

All in all, I agree with what you are saying.

I would just like to add that I have found myself extremely happy working for a company of ~100 people (especially when compared with my previous company of ~30,000).

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#187

Post by jlkuester7 »

jogu wrote: post #174
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm emotionally with you, however the OP is right in that the GP most likely doesn't have any options other than quitting and going to a company that doesn't do this OP is also correct in that the following is how HR at almost every large company thinks about comp: 1. Comp is usually not set by a Hiring Manager and is specifically based on "comparable" which is based on job type and location. 2. Job type and location…

Just a small nit but I think you mixed up OP (Original Poster) and GP (Grand Parent).

Hah! I was just wondering if maybe my understanding of those terms was incorrect... Thanks for confirming that I am not going crazy (in that way, at least)!

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#188

Post by akshaykumar90 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #76
pyrodactyl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I'm very conflicted about this. My issue is not directly with my salary. It's more with the fact the I'm being payed less when compared to my peers in other locations while I'm doing the same/more work. Location doesn't influence output, why should it influence the pay scale?

because you're not being paid on your input, markets don't run on the labour theory of value. You're being paid for the lowest amount that you, or someone else, is willing to do your job, and that amount happens to be lower in a place with lower cost of living. people earn more in San Francisco because the rent is a gazillion dollars and if they got paid Indian wages nobody would show up at the office.

> people earn more in San Francisco because the rent is a gazillion dollars

It's actually the other way around. Rent is a gazillion dollars because people are paid so much and the housing supply is very limited.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#189

Post by chrismcb »

The main reason a company pays a person in one locale more than another, is that what it costs to retain that person in that locale. If you want a good person in the bay area or is going to cost more that a person in another area. Cost of living plays a part. But it is really about the other competitors in the area. But honestly don't be resentful. There are a lot of headaches in the higher pay areas. Like traffic is worse. Is the extra pay worth it? Maybe, maybe not

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#190

Post by tluyben2 »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #95

Kind of depends what you are getting paid, but if it is less then $100k say, you can easily find remote jobs that pay more, play them off against each other. The companies are using sharp business practice to get you as cheap as possible, you can do the same to get as much as possible. Apply for 100 remote jobs, interview, smash the interviews, ask for top $ from all of them. See https://remoteok.com/ , etc. If on he…

But 100k or, actually, 50k is very high for outsourcing countries. There are many talented and senior programmers working for less than 20k; the thing is, they wouldn’t pass the ‘modern’ interview practices of western companies. Language or culture or both prevents them from getting passed even the first step, and many companies have nonsense processes in place that require many steps over many weeks. It is a competitive advantage these days, in the west or elsewhere, to not interview at all outside a 15 minute chat; people will drop their wages considerably, in the US, EU and elsewhere, to not go through (often humiliating if they are senior devs) interview garbage I have noticed over the past 10 years or so.

100k is high though; 100K in the eu is still not common at all. I know many people (with uni degrees and senior engineering positions) in Nl/uk/de who would switch jobs today if you offered something that. If wfh and reasonable interviews of course.

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