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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#141

Post by AlbertCory »

jbay808 wrote: post #116
rootusrootus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 100% correct that's simply a negotiation, and this is another variable. But if you came at me and told me I had to pay you what I pay my US employees, my first response would be "alright, but you have to work US hours and speak perfect American English." Honestly, that's a good part of why we try to hire in one general area, in this case the US. There is a real cost to foreign developers who only speak passable…

Sounds like you should hire Canadians!

Many people don't consider Canadian English "passable" :)

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#142

Post by ZephyrBlu »

kurupt213 wrote: post #105
throwaway6734 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just location that warps salary. I've worked with plenty of people senior to me that contributed less than me but got paid more. The only solution I've found is to change jobs

How do you judge ‘contributed less’? More senior people generally have more skill and a better understanding of the product, making them more able to make decisions that carry much more value to the business than labor from non-senior employees

The perception that YOE == skill matters far more than people would care to admit.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#143

Post by jbay808 »

AlbertCory wrote: post #141
jbay808 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you should hire Canadians!

Many people don't consider Canadian English "passable" :)

We're quite willing to misspell "colour" for US rates!

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#144

Post by darth_avocado »

kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire replacement

What is being described here is supply/demand economics. If you think you’re being underpaid, quit, find something else that pays you more. The reason why you won’t quit is the reason why the company doesn’t pay you more. You don’t have other options, and if you quit, they know there will be 10 other people ready to take you place for those wages.

Part of the reason why wages in places like the Bay Area are high is because companies are competing with each other for talent and if you don’t pay people, they are ready to quit and replacements aren’t easy at lower wages.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#145

Post by whb07 »

cauefcr wrote: post #98
soueuls wrote: post #60

The reverse would be unfair as well. If someone have to live in San Francisco to make 250k/year but pay a high rent etc. And you make 250k/year living in Ho Chi Minh that would be unfair to them. And would be a little bit unfair to your local people, the selected few (employees) able to work remotely would literally make 80x time the local salary. There is no way to solve this problem, if you want your compensation t…

value === value, fairness was never a feature in capitalism.

Exactly, and the thread is about the other side of the coin.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#146

Post by flippinburgers »

The only part of this that you have some control over is where you work. It sucks because I understand how you feel and what you are going through, but you will have to find a different job at a different company that pays more. That is the only thing you can change.

Your company has clearly communicated that they don't care about how you feel about this.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#147

Post by soneca »

rootusrootus wrote: post #78
soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

It's 100% correct that's simply a negotiation, and this is another variable. But if you came at me and told me I had to pay you what I pay my US employees, my first response would be "alright, but you have to work US hours and speak perfect American English." Honestly, that's a good part of why we try to hire in one general area, in this case the US. There is a real cost to foreign developers who only speak passable…

There is a lot between "passable" and "perfect" American english. I have far from "perfect" English, but in all my jobs as software developer for american companies (3 so far), I got great feedback for my communication skills. Mostly, being remote, is written communication, but still.

I am close enough to US timezone (Brazil).

So, I guess you would be paying me what you pay US employees as well :)

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#148

Post by Friday0722 »

mattdeboard wrote: post #131
frostwarrior wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had an interview a few days ago and I asked something similar. I asked about the possibility to travel to the US to greet my coworkers and work alongside them. They said they won't raise my salary and they expect me to stay in my region (Latin America). They also said that if I go to the US or Europe, it would be though to live there with my remote salary. It felt somewhat insulting tbh. As if they said "we want yo…

Exactly. Alienation from the fruits of your labor. It's disgusting we expect people to tolerate it, and act like it's not a totally optional choice by management to exploit labor resources to get a better return on investment for the already wealthy. A modern take on colonization.

On the other hand, the only reason the company hired someone overseas was to save money. They would not have even considered these candidates if they weren't hugely cheaper. Instead, the company would have hired from the local labor market instead.

What the submitter should be asking themselves, is whether they can pull a higher wage working from their current location with any other company. If they can do that, they should. If they can't, and it's likely that they cannot because most companies are operating similarly, then they're getting a fair market rate for their situation. That's the free market.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#149

Post by okaram »

Please don't see this as a lack of empathy, but I think the only solution under your control is to apply to other positions and leave when you get a better one.

And if you apply to many and can't find a better one, then try to see it as 'they pay me better than anyone else' rather than they pay me less than others in the company.

I believe (but have no evidence) that smart companies will minimize the location differences to get better talent and will get a competitive advantage, but you may need to search ...

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#150

Post by neilv »

I see multiple upvoted posts that the pay is based solely on "cost to hire your replacement".

But in some companies, after they decide to make an offer, it will be "how much to get you to accept". So that wouldn't be a function of their options so much as a function of your options.

As to how the calculus changes when it comes to retention, in your company, I don't know.

(Tech companies overall are famous for being good at luring talent (e.g., huge pay bump from current place) but bad at retention (e.g., small raises that don't track with market and value to the company). Hence the common practice of job-hopping frequently, and all the long effects that might have on software engineering practice (e.g., resume-driven development, and people not around long enough to see how engineering decisions play out).)

Do you trust your manager to deal with you in good faith, to have your best interests in mind, and to represent you competently with the company machine? Maybe see whether your manager thinks the company is paying what the processes (not necessarily individuals) implicitly think is what they can get you to accept, rather than what it would cost to hire and retain someone who could provide as much value to the company. If it's the former, see whether that sounds exploitative to you and your manager. If it does, maybe manager can look into whether something leadership wants to reflect upon, and see whether it can do anything to improve that.

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