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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#81

Post by rootusrootus »

If I am hiring outside the US, I'm doing it to save money. I'm willing to accept the downsides -- schedule differences, language barriers, etc, in order to save money. Otherwise I would just hire someone in the US. So if a foreign dev were to tell me I had to pay the US rates, I'd pass.

I think you should negotiate for as much as you can, but it is unrealistic to benchmark yourself against US employees of a US company based strictly on your skillset without any appreciation for other perfectly valid factors.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#82

Post by brodock »

1659447091 wrote: post #63
pyrodactyl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a crazy conspiracy, I know it's pretty clear why it's being done. And I know I can't do anything about it other than look for new opportunities. But should location based pay be just accepted because that's the norm? There are variables that can't be used to do discriminate like age, gender, race, sexual orientation etc. We've accepted equal pay for equal work in these cases. Is it that far fetched that even…

If looking at it from a company perspective, I'm not sure I would see much benefit for them in doing so. If a company is based in the US/EU and pays the same wage to workers in someplace like Asia, they would not gain much(financially) by hiring in Asia in the first place (companies that have no need to hire in Asia). Why bother dealing with the grumbling at home about exporting jobs to outside locations if they are…

Talent is scarse. People are hiring outside of the US because there is no one else to hire from at current payrange in those locations. You could start a biding war and pouch from other companies but that may not be financially viable for your business.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#83

Post by version_five »

> even though we do the same work

This is dubious. I see a lot of "I'm doing the same as him/her/that level but only getting paid x" and it's often not true. Either in terms of responsibility or expectations (for example nobody really thinks an offshore / outsource provider will deliver the same as in-house) you are probably doing less. The solution is to get the job you are comparing yours to.

Edit: this comment posted at the same time as mine is saying exactly the same from an employer's perspective: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32718612

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#84

Post by rco8786 »

rtlfe wrote: post #57
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That's not necessarily true. Many fully remote companies hire from anywhere and pay location-adjusted wages. So it's a roll of the dice whether the replacement makes more or less than you.

No way. No company in the world is just hiring anywhere and paying whatever the living wage happens to be at that location.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#85

Post by swatcoder »

kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it.

Only in an imaginary world of perfect information and labor liquidity, which is about as far from what we have (and could have) as can be.

Location-adjusted pay for remote US workers is indeed a social norm, proposed by some firms and accepted by enough of labor for it to work for them. It persists mostly because it exists and because there’s no organized effort to disrupt it.

Nonetheless, their are still many firms that don’t do that, many employees that don’t settle for it, and some firms that initially negotiate from it while accepting counteroffers that reject it.

Reducing an extremely complicated market to an oversimplified post hoc theory, just because it exists a certain way, is neither correct nor helpful to the issue at hand. It does nothing but shut down richer discussion and reinforce an incidental status quo.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#86

Post by matt_attack »

chrsig wrote: post #79
contravariant wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is the rationale there? Why wouldn't companies just hire the people willing to work for a lower salary?

because it's not the only factor in hiring? competency and likelihood to succeed in the role does still play a role

Hence it being the cost to hire/pay your replacement not just cost to hire anyone.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#87

Post by googlryas »

pyrodactyl wrote: post #55
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

Its not a crazy conspiracy, I know it's pretty clear why it's being done. And I know I can't do anything about it other than look for new opportunities. But should location based pay be just accepted because that's the norm? There are variables that can't be used to do discriminate like age, gender, race, sexual orientation etc. We've accepted equal pay for equal work in these cases. Is it that far fetched that even…

Would you accept if your landlord got upset when he saw how much some people are being charged for rent in silicon valley, and decided to triple your rent?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#88

Post by extragood »

rtlfe wrote: post #54
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #51

The cost of living point is very valid. A great salary in Hanoi is most likely to be a very low wage in San Francisco. You can't expect an employer to pay way above the local market rate for a position. Bottom line, they will always find someone to work if they offer a bit above the local market rates. The salary, whatever miles away makes no difference. As far as how to deal with it, look a round you I bet your sala…

> You can't expect an employer to pay way above the local market rate for a position. This would certainly be true for a business where all the employees and clients are local, but doesn't have to true for a global company with fully remote jobs. If I'm providing as much value as an SF-based employee and demand a raise to 80% of SF pay, the company would be foolish to let me leave.

Is your cost of living anywhere close to what it would be in SF?

The average 1 bedroom apartment costs $3,060/month [1] or $36,720/year. The tax rate is high, and depending on where in the world you are, there are additional expenses such as healthcare that need to be factored in as well.

If we're only concerned with fairness in compensation, cost of living must be a factor.

[1] https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/san-francisco-ca

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#90

Post by sinenomine »

pasquinelli wrote: post #80
sinenomine wrote: post #61

> What do others think about this and how do you deal with this? One word: counter-offer Welcome to the world ( plane? ) of zero-sum games and adversarial strategies! Appealing to fairness doesn't help in this world - because the values and corresponding strategies of your management and yourself are fundamentally adversarial to each other - that is, your delta of profit is their delta of loss. People like to argue s…

> Welcome to the world (plane?) of zero-sum games and adversarial strategies! Appealing to fairness doesn't help in this world - because the values and corresponding strategies of your management and yourself are fundamentally adversarial to each other - that is, your delta of profit is their delta of loss. People like to argue sophisticated game theoretical takes that serve to obfuscate this simple truth. what is th…

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