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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#71

Post by pyrodactyl »

pkrotich wrote: post #30

I agree with you that it's unfair and senseless but it's market dynamic (supply and demand) with capitalism bend to it. There are probably hundrends of people with your capabilities, where you're now, willing to work at your current pay scale and probably thousands elsewhere in poorer places willing to work for much less than you. Not to mention even more - who are as capable as you're - but lack the opportunity you…

Thanks for this, helps me that people understand me and I'm not being very unreasonable.

From what I've gotten from my discussions on my post is

1) I will start looking for contract work. Not going to be easy, but the best way forward.

2) Use some of the negotiation techniques mentioned like bringing up the fact I'm not competing locally, but internationally

3) Negotiate with my company and threaten to leave? Not fully sure of this. More alligend to leaving anyway as I find the excuses for location based pay pathetic. Will be leaving as soon as I can.

4) Always talk compensation with co-workers

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#72

Post by pkrotich »

pyrodactyl wrote: post #71
pkrotich wrote: post #30

I agree with you that it's unfair and senseless but it's market dynamic (supply and demand) with capitalism bend to it. There are probably hundrends of people with your capabilities, where you're now, willing to work at your current pay scale and probably thousands elsewhere in poorer places willing to work for much less than you. Not to mention even more - who are as capable as you're - but lack the opportunity you…

Thanks for this, helps me that people understand me and I'm not being very unreasonable. From what I've gotten from my discussions on my post is 1) I will start looking for contract work. Not going to be easy, but the best way forward. 2) Use some of the negotiation techniques mentioned like bringing up the fact I'm not competing locally, but internationally 3) Negotiate with my company and threaten to leave? Not ful…

5) Become indispensable in the role you're (before #3). This is true even locally - why should I as an employer pay you more when I can get someone cheaper to do what you can do.

6) While contract work sometimes calls for a generalist (#1 above)... try to be a specialist by becoming an expert in a high demand field(s). At that point you can charge whatever you want regardless of your location.

7) Don't exchange your time for money - get paid for your skillset (related to #1 & #6)

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#73

Post by andrepd »

seibelj wrote: post #13
wahnfrieden wrote: post #4

There's no real winning these on a point by point basis because the entire system of wage labor is set up to separate you from the value you create for owners as much as the market will bear. Employers agree with this openly every time they talk about how this is a market, though they avoid the charged language and obfuscate it by drawing focus to other ideas. These kind of logical points from employers are not rules…

My problem with these arguments is that there is supposedly a permanent class of “owners” and one of “workers”, and the workers are completely without agency nor ability to become owners themselves. Especially in software, a good idea can be converted into a business with minimal friction no matter where you live. America has helped created more Latino millionaires than any other business through McDonald’s franchisi…

The "anybody who objects or suggests improvements to the current system are lazy bums who just complain all day" is a trope as old as time.

Man I'm just glad not everyone shares your "praise the statu quo" mindset, or we would never have had any progress at all.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#74

Post by antisthenes »

seibelj wrote: post #13
wahnfrieden wrote: post #4

There's no real winning these on a point by point basis because the entire system of wage labor is set up to separate you from the value you create for owners as much as the market will bear. Employers agree with this openly every time they talk about how this is a market, though they avoid the charged language and obfuscate it by drawing focus to other ideas. These kind of logical points from employers are not rules…

My problem with these arguments is that there is supposedly a permanent class of “owners” and one of “workers”, and the workers are completely without agency nor ability to become owners themselves. Especially in software, a good idea can be converted into a business with minimal friction no matter where you live. America has helped created more Latino millionaires than any other business through McDonald’s franchisi…

> My problem with these arguments is that there is supposedly a permanent class of “owners” and one of “workers”, and the workers are completely without agency nor ability to become owners themselves.

That's because there is. Whatever workers become owners is usually through a lucky windfall, e.g. finding a niche, being a market first-comer, marrying to a person who is an "owner", etc.

It doesn't scale, so any tales of mass upward mobility are usually exaggerated and not applicable in practice.

However, none of these are an excuse to stop doing anything. You can still play by the capitalist game and improve your station, even without becoming an owner. That still requires some luck (e.g. having a decent childhood and education), but it is at least attainable.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#75

Post by Panzer04 »

pyrodactyl wrote: post #55
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

Its not a crazy conspiracy, I know it's pretty clear why it's being done. And I know I can't do anything about it other than look for new opportunities. But should location based pay be just accepted because that's the norm? There are variables that can't be used to do discriminate like age, gender, race, sexual orientation etc. We've accepted equal pay for equal work in these cases. Is it that far fetched that even…

You’re missing the point. Location based pay is not the norm, the norm is paying you as much as it would cost to find an equivalent replacement. That just happens to be location-dependant.

It’s got nothing to do with discrimination, it’s purely about hiring for the lowest cost. They have to pay more in EU and US to get employees, and less wherever you live.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#76

Post by Barrin92 »

pyrodactyl wrote: post #15
throwaway6734 wrote: post #10

Switch jobs to one that pays better or move

Honestly, I'm very conflicted about this. My issue is not directly with my salary. It's more with the fact the I'm being payed less when compared to my peers in other locations while I'm doing the same/more work. Location doesn't influence output, why should it influence the pay scale?

because you're not being paid on your input, markets don't run on the labour theory of value. You're being paid for the lowest amount that you, or someone else, is willing to do your job, and that amount happens to be lower in a place with lower cost of living.

people earn more in San Francisco because the rent is a gazillion dollars and if they got paid Indian wages nobody would show up at the office.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#77

Post by contravariant »

rtlfe wrote: post #57
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That's not necessarily true. Many fully remote companies hire from anywhere and pay location-adjusted wages. So it's a roll of the dice whether the replacement makes more or less than you.

What exactly is the rationale there? Why wouldn't companies just hire the people willing to work for a lower salary?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#78

Post by rootusrootus »

soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

It's 100% correct that's simply a negotiation, and this is another variable. But if you came at me and told me I had to pay you what I pay my US employees, my first response would be "alright, but you have to work US hours and speak perfect American English." Honestly, that's a good part of why we try to hire in one general area, in this case the US. There is a real cost to foreign developers who only speak passable English and who work on a schedule that has little or no overlap with US time zones.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#79

Post by chrsig »

contravariant wrote: post #77
rtlfe wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That's not necessarily true. Many fully remote companies hire from anywhere and pay location-adjusted wages. So it's a roll of the dice whether the replacement makes more or less than you.

What exactly is the rationale there? Why wouldn't companies just hire the people willing to work for a lower salary?

because it's not the only factor in hiring? competency and likelihood to succeed in the role does still play a role

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#80

Post by pasquinelli »

sinenomine wrote: post #61

> What do others think about this and how do you deal with this? One word: counter-offer Welcome to the world ( plane? ) of zero-sum games and adversarial strategies! Appealing to fairness doesn't help in this world - because the values and corresponding strategies of your management and yourself are fundamentally adversarial to each other - that is, your delta of profit is their delta of loss. People like to argue s…

> Welcome to the world (plane?) of zero-sum games and adversarial strategies! Appealing to fairness doesn't help in this world - because the values and corresponding strategies of your management and yourself are fundamentally adversarial to each other - that is, your delta of profit is their delta of loss. People like to argue sophisticated game theoretical takes that serve to obfuscate this simple truth.

what is this, Das Kapital?

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