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After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

cfenollosa.com

211–220 of 744 posts

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#211

I support the author but let me tell you a counterargument I don’t think he devotes enough to: Spam is a real issue. The amount of spam emails which get sent are absurd and likely orders of magnitude more than non-spam . And spammers do a lot to mimic real emails, including just hacking legitimate addresses and adding them to botnets. Even on gmail, I still get spam sent to my inbox. Fortunately very rarely, but it s…

Very well-put.

> And even if it isn’t bad today, spam has the potential to be much worse in the future with transformer networks and hostile state actors.

> Even on gmail, I still get spam sent to my inbox. Fortunately very rarely, but it still happens.

It is as good as it is exactly because of the requirements author finds tedious.

> It may be as simple as registering your official email with some organization sponsored by open-source, and all the big companies can trust that one organization. Then the org has to deal with spam registrations but maybe there won’t be much and it will work out. idk much about self-hosting so this org might already exist.

They do exist but there are a bunch of problems with that. People have varying definitions of spam, getting paid to whitelist someone creates a perverse incentive or not getting paid will quickly overwhelm the organisation.

Things could be better if we could enforce sender authentication (SPF/DKIM). It would assign a direct cost to getting your domain blacklisted. But if nobody is taking away rest of the spammer's domains (or keeps selling them new ones), they'll continue.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#212
post #153

>You cannot set it up on your own datacenter. There are still new email providers appearing every few years right? What special incantations are they performing to be allowed in the club? Do they buy large IP ranges? Do they pay protection money to Google et al?

They buy their own IP range, establish their own AS, and pay for peering/bandwidth as an independent network and not as a single user/customer on someone else's network.

This is fairly straightforward to do, but requires more commitment than renting some CPU time and bandwidth on someone else's machine.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#213
post #12

I started hosting my own email in 2004 before finally giving up and migrating my email to Fastmail last year. Besides the problems mentioned in this post the real problem I had was dealing with spam. The open source community around spam has really degraded over time, to the point where most solutions are extremely high maintenance and require regular tweaking. Methods that used to work, like greylisting, cause probl…

I started self hosting in 2017. (With a fresh domain. I'm the only user.) My sever closes the incoming connection if it doesn't has a rDNS or the HELO doesn't match the rDNS. Apart from that I have no anti spam measures! Friends and family have my firstname.lastname@domain address. Websites and companies get a @domain address. So far I have only reserved 3 spam mails. Two times they got the address from a public mailing list I participated. One time it was from a webshop that sold or leaked my address.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#214
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the same Big tech story. They want to cut cost, you want a human touch. You can see a similar story here in HN every week. Dang, sounds like our monopolized tech dystopia is probably inevitable. If only there was some state level mechanism to help balance the interests of industries maximizing profits and those of users who need a robust system which doesn't harm them.

A previous thread (5m old) here showed it is not that cut and dry, a good read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30788681

There is a really great bit from Robert Reich (labor admin from the Clinton years) about how if you're business would collapse if you need to pay people more than minimum wage, you shouldn't be in business.

If your business suddenly fails as soon as you need to... support your customers, then you probably shouldn't be in business and only exist as a fluke in the current economic model.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#215
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't surprise me if Linode were entirely blocked. Also anything in M247 Ltd's ASN. They host a lot of VPN endpoints, including Mullvad's. Step 1, I'd move off Linode. Find a local DC or business you can support by hosting a VPS or dedi box with them. LowEndBox might be an interesting place to search but avoid anything too famous. Step 2, join this https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/pm/services... .…

IMO, any low-cost VPS provider is going to have a poor reputation. I've even had trouble running websites on some of them, as some "endpoint security" products have their IP addresses blacklisted, causing users to get alarming warnings if they try to visit sites hosted there. You'll run into the same issues with the "free/trial" tiers of bulk email services like Mailgun. I agree with OP, you pretty much have to at le…

I'd still say it depends. I've used memset (www.memset.com) in the UK in the past without issue. They have low end VPS offerings, but they're not as well known as say Linode.

It isn't so easy to categorise such a service by pure ASN, as they also offer dedicated and colocation services, so you might be blocking a licensed 'on prem' exchange box for a local UK council.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#216
post #143
post #42

Very interesting, I've self hosted my e-mail since 1999, which incidentally is 23 years ago. My current server is at Hetzner in Germany.

do you have your own asn? The entire Hetzner network has been banned by Microsoft, so you can't send to Hotmail addresses

Do you have a source for this? Because I don't think it's true.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#217
I pretty much stopped using email altogether once I realised this is what was happening. Maybe 10 years ago now.

Email was really useful if you wanted to send a message or notification to multiple people at the same time, but that got abused so much literally everyone disabled it, at which point email was no longer useful.

People can still send me emails (e.g. for plane tickets), but the chances of me replying to one are nearly zero. Now I send maybe 4 or 5 emails a year and only to people who wont use literally anything else.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#218
post #21

The sweet spot for having control over your email while simultaneously minimizing unforseen headaches is to simply own your domain name and point the MX record to whatever hosting provider you want instead of self-hosting a server at home. Same philosophy for exposing a your personal blog of html files or content like mp4 videos. The sweet spot is to focus on buying a domain name you control. Then let Amazon S3, or C…

I am ashamed to admit that I have no idea how email works. Is there a dumb down explanation of what are the moving parts and how you can achieve that sweet spot?

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a happy medium. Host your own MX servers but use someone else's SMTP servers. You have complete control over the incoming mail but dodge the filters by using the established business for sending mail.

> Host your own MX servers but use someone else's SMTP servers. Yes. My outgoing email goes out via Sonic's SMTP server, with the SPF records to allow it to have a source address of my own domain. Incoming email goes to my own domains and gets forwarded. This seems to be trouble-free. The domain is on a cheap shared hosting account. I'm not running a server. I own the domain, and not though the hosting company, so I…

>I just looked at my spam folder. I'm regularly being offered dental supplies, large hydraulic sheet metal bending presses, and ammonium sulfate fertilizer. It seems that having your own domain now means you get mostly business-to-business spam. I subscribe to Machine Design, which gets me some heavy industrial marketing, but I have no idea why I get dental supply ads. The fertilizer spams, from China, look like a scam - there's a fertilizer shortage, so that's a spam which might get replies.

I used to have a 'Shirley' email all the time from China about elevator parts. It was such a niche kind of spam that I eventually replied and requested pictures of a bunch of parts. They sent them!

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#220
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is BIMI "monopolizing"? It's a trivial DNS record.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28196403

There's the catch - VMCs are not a mandatory part of BIMI. Though if you want to establish trust, someone has to be willing to put their name on the line and verify everything required. If you have a better approach in mind, I'm sure a lot of people would love to know.
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