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Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

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Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#111

Post by worik »

gumby wrote: post #39
geodel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should try to reconcile the facts that those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of 1) Near monopoly in that sector 2) Excessive surveillance and tracking users 3) Increasing inequality between haves and have nots. And non-FAANG type IT worker are also paid relatively high at the cost of other workers living perilous lives. So unless Europeans really start cherishing these "values". They are not go…

> those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of ... 2) Excessive surveillance... This is an absurd and lazy take. There are plenty of high paying software jobs in the US that have nothing to do with surveillance (e.g. the AWS part of Amazon, Apple, SpaceX, all sorts of robotics companies, etc). Europe's concerns in this area are a strength that they should be taking advantage of. FWIW I think the surveilla…

The point was, if I read it correctly, that comparing salaries is only part of the picture.

There is a yawning cultural divide between the USA and the rest of the world. Especially the non-English speaking world.

I am in an English speaking country that slips under the shadow of the cloud cast by the cultural hegemony of the USA (Aotearoa) and when I look around at my lifestyle, my friends, community, and the problems we have as a country and society - salary would not be enough to move me.

I am grossly underpaid by any standard (working on it) but the compensations of lifestyle and culture are well worth it

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#112

Post by worik »

sgjohnson wrote: post #86
kareemsabri wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft is in the same boat. Virtually no users of their products are actually their customers. Apple has less than 10% of the PC market. What do you think the rest of them are running?

> Apple has less than 10% of the PC market. What do you think the rest of them are running? If you didn't pay for your copy of Windows (which you most likely didn't, far more likely it was provided to you in another way, such as OEM or your employer), you are not Microsoft's customer. Likewise, if you got the free license from upgrading, you're also not their customer. Pirated Windows? Not their customer. Bought one…

That makes no sense.

If you use Microsoft products you are their customer.

Splitting hairs is a bit silly

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#113

Post by gibspaulding »

gumby wrote: post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

>what really matters: treating their vehicle as a modern electronic device.

I'd take clunky old software over "all sorts of fit and finish bugs, and ... above average in mechanical problems" any day.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#114

Post by worik »

kareemsabri wrote: post #32
geodel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should try to reconcile the facts that those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of 1) Near monopoly in that sector 2) Excessive surveillance and tracking users 3) Increasing inequality between haves and have nots. And non-FAANG type IT worker are also paid relatively high at the cost of other workers living perilous lives. So unless Europeans really start cherishing these "values". They are not go…

Can you explain how paying software engineers higher salaries means other people need to live "perilous lives". You could just lower your EBIDTA a bit. Software engineers in the US aren't rich because of janitors being underpaid or something.

But computer programmers are over paid and janitors under paid.

It is because if all the computer programmers went away the world would limp on. If all the janitors went away we would be swimming in shit.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#115

Post by KerrAvon »

orangepurple wrote: post #75
i80and wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling their structural safety great seems like an overstatement -- I can't find a Dacia model on EuroNCAP that doesn't have sketchy dummy kinematics, and one new model (Spring) performs startlingly poorly in crash tests The best appears to be the 2021 Dacia Logan[1] which has a crash test littered with "marginals": > [...] structures in the dashboard presented a risk of injury to occupants of different sizes and to…

That's fair. It's still a massive improvement over the cars built before 2000 which would decapitate you with the steering column from a fender bender.

That is good news. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIUQq7t6brM

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#117

Post by travisgriggs »

gumby wrote: post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

I don’t think this phenomena is unique to Europe. I completed my degree in Mechanical Engineering, even though I was pretty sure near the end I was going to remain a programmer. The ability to bridge the two domains was appealing. So my plan was to exist in that place where software meets real world things. There have I worked for most of my career, the exception being a 6 year stint in tools/IDEs. The sentiment you describe has existed to some degree or another in all of my work. Software is always the “newcomer” to the game. Older electrical and mechanical hierarchies have usually come to pass. And so software ends up being managed as a “necessary evil”, by individuals who believe that their experience in other technical disciplines empowers them to manage and lead technical disciplines that are actually different.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#118

Post by etempleton »

I don’t think much of the world realizes yet just how important silicon and software is and will be moving forward. People think we are reaching peak silicon are wrong, demand is going to continue to grow for the long term. Software developers are going to be even more in demand. Europe, to wildly generalize, doesn’t seem to grasp this. Whether it be German automotive companies or Russian military contractors, the slow response is killing them—in Russia’s case—quite literally.

Chips and software, software and chips. Access to chips and good software make all the difference.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#119

Post by lokar »

pedalpete wrote: post #66
astrange wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO the only countries that really understand software at both a technical and business value add level are US, AUS, Canada, China, with India less so but in that group and Japan just barely getting in. What are Australia and Canada doing in there? Australia has… Atlassian? Besides that, I’ve only heard of developers in Aus/Canada/Japan being well paid if they work for US companies like Google or are parked there…

I'm a Canadian living in Australia. Australia has much more than just Atlassian. Canva is the 9th most valuable private company according to crunchbase [1]. But you need to look deeper than just "who has the biggest most successful companies. Note, the comment says "countries that understand software". From what I've seen, and one of the reasons I moved here, Australia values quality production. They understand where…

Atlassian certainly does not value software quality.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#120

Post by lokar »

worik wrote: post #108
TacticalCoder wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. The biggest european software company is, what, the german SAP. And SAP is tiny compared to US software companies. Europe has something like six companies in the top 100 software companies when ranked by market cap and only one in the top 10 (the german SAP). That's hardly being a "significant player in the non web / non ad space".

A lot of IT infrastructure comes from Europe

Hardware, not software
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