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Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

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Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not very familiar with Australia. But thinking that high paying company like Atlassian which produces a very crappy software which I unfortunately deal daily. To me it shows high pay does not guarantee good quality software which many(not you) seems to be arguing here. That's a different problem. That's because you, the user, are not a customer of Atlassian. Companies and their micromanagers, however, love JIRA. Mi…

> Microsoft is in the same boat. Virtually no users of their products are actually their customers. That's how you get away with producing very crappy software, even if you hire the top talent. Such a weird logic. You’re saying that Microsoft produces crappy software even though they hire too talent. And they get away with it because the people who buy it don’t use it (i.e. by extension don’t care if they’re spending…

Microsoft isn’t a top-payer like Google et al.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#82
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is why and how. There is no point is arguing "low" European salaries unless someone shows European companies are more profitable and they save a nice chunk of money by paying less to S/w engineers. Not very familiar with Australia. But thinking that high paying company like Atlassian which produces a very crappy software which I unfortunately deal daily. To me it shows high pay does not guarantee good qu…

> Not very familiar with Australia. But thinking that high paying company like Atlassian which produces a very crappy software which I unfortunately deal daily. To me it shows high pay does not guarantee good quality software which many(not you) seems to be arguing here. That's a different problem. That's because you, the user, are not a customer of Atlassian. Companies and their micromanagers, however, love JIRA. Mi…

> Microsoft is in the same boat. Virtually no users of their products are actually their customers.

Apple has less than 10% of the PC market. What do you think the rest of them are running?

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#83
I hate that auto companies are trying to copy Tesla’s awful product design philosophy of controlling everything via a screen and software. It’s the worst thing to happen to the industry since its inception in my opinion.

1. We’re now introducing so many brand new problems to automobiles or tremendously exacerbating existing ones. I’m referring to problems inherent to all complex software. Bugs, updates causing various regressions, fragility, a whole new set of attack vectors for hackers, [insert 1000 other problems here].

2. Consumers are unable to appreciate craftsmanship and engineering prowess of creating physical interfaces (dials, buttons, materials, textures, precise stitching and assembly). People love and definitely pay for craftsmanship in things like mechanical keyboards and mechanical watches. We used to be able to enjoy this in cars too, but that’s rapidly fading.

3. It’s just so distracting and time consuming (and therefore dangerous) using a touch screen. Touch screens only make sense on devices that you’re expected to focus your eyes on. That’s why they work on phones but not to replace physical keys of a keyboard, for example.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#84
post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

> IMHO the only countries that really understand software at both a technical and business value add level are US, AUS, Canada, China, with India less so but in that group and Japan just barely getting in. What are Australia and Canada doing in there? Australia has… Atlassian? Besides that, I’ve only heard of developers in Aus/Canada/Japan being well paid if they work for US companies like Google or are parked there…

> What are Australia and Canada doing in there? Australia has… Atlassian?

There are plenty of wellknown tech/software companies originating in Australia. Xero, Freelancer, Canva, REA Group, MYOB, Airtasker, BigCommerce, Afterpay...

Many foreign software companies have development teams in Aus as well. Google, Zendesk, Square, Squarespace spring to mind.

https://www.smartcompany.com.au/technology/the-top-50-tech-c...

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#85

I had a Porsche Taycan almost kill me and my entire family due to the absolutely negligent engineering team at porsche. An update was applied which killed the motor due to a stack overflow error — while driving! Porsche set up the error handling to kill the engine immediately with even the slightest error. I testified along with fellow owners to the NHTSA and got all Taycans recalled. The arrogance and denial that Po…

Is this the recall you’re referring to? [0] Is there a report somewhere / investigative details on the recall? Thanks! [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/porsch... —— EDIT I found https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2021/RCLRPT-21V486-3851.PDF “Due to a software issue that has since been corrected, the software designed to continuously monitor end-to-end communication between the safety-related EC…

Yes, but what they didn’t say in that statement is they were attempting to correct the issue post-incident to cover their tracks before the owners got together and gave testimony. They kept telling drivers it was a one off issue that no one had experienced, while in reality many had been affected. They even offered significant payoffs to some. It was well past negligence and into active harm.

When advised cars were bricking on the highway, the report states “Porsche did not consider this a safety concern”

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not very familiar with Australia. But thinking that high paying company like Atlassian which produces a very crappy software which I unfortunately deal daily. To me it shows high pay does not guarantee good quality software which many(not you) seems to be arguing here. That's a different problem. That's because you, the user, are not a customer of Atlassian. Companies and their micromanagers, however, love JIRA. Mi…

> Microsoft is in the same boat. Virtually no users of their products are actually their customers. Apple has less than 10% of the PC market. What do you think the rest of them are running?

> Apple has less than 10% of the PC market. What do you think the rest of them are running?

If you didn't pay for your copy of Windows (which you most likely didn't, far more likely it was provided to you in another way, such as OEM or your employer), you are not Microsoft's customer.

Likewise, if you got the free license from upgrading, you're also not their customer.

Pirated Windows? Not their customer.

Bought one of those $20 license keys? Still not their customer.

Actually bought a Windows key directly from them? Okay, you're their customer. You're in the minority.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#87
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO the only countries that really understand software at both a technical and business value add level are US, AUS, Canada, China, with India less so but in that group and Japan just barely getting in. What are Australia and Canada doing in there? Australia has… Atlassian? Besides that, I’ve only heard of developers in Aus/Canada/Japan being well paid if they work for US companies like Google or are parked there…

> What are Australia and Canada doing in there? Australia has… Atlassian? There are plenty of wellknown tech/software companies originating in Australia. Xero, Freelancer, Canva, REA Group, MYOB, Airtasker, BigCommerce, Afterpay... Many foreign software companies have development teams in Aus as well. Google, Zendesk, Square, Squarespace spring to mind. https://www.smartcompany.com.au/technology/the-top-50-tech-c...

I’m a US-UK dual citizen but my partner is Australian. I’m collecting the whole Anglosphere.

But when looking at living there, the wages/housing prices seemed like a poor trade off even compared to California. Although of course it’s a great place to live in many other ways.

I’ve heard of some of those but haven’t looked up their pay bands, not sure Afterpay has a moat though…

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#88
post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

For a long time, there was a meme about "hardware" people not understanding software, and there was enough anecdotal evidence, to make the jokes about it funny. Example: "Never trust a hardware engineer with a keyboard, and never trust a programmer with a screwdriver."

I once mentioned this meme (referring to a specific anecdote) in a small group of CS people, and the big-name CS professor in the group immediately agreed with it, saying "They are our worst enemy!" (I think he was referring, seriously, to everything that has been learned, in his fields of CS and Software Engineering, beyond what needs to be exercised to get a program to compile and initially seem to work.)

My theory about that meme: all EEs (for example) will have done some programming (in some cases, like someone who can write numerous paragraphs of English, but isn't even aware of the gap between that and a great novel). And EEs might also reasonably have the impression that "coding" is easier than the hard real engineering classes that the EE had to pass. Of course, it's clear to everyone that CS people couldn't do the jobs of EE people, but it's less clear in the other direction.

To the extent that the meme is sometimes true, I think current market realities don't break it. A company driven by people with hard engineering/science backgrounds might realize it has to pay some market rate for software people. (And if the product obviously needed some kind of clown college skills, like face-painting, they'd pay for it, even if they thought those clowns had it easy.) But that doesn't mean they understand what's involved in the craft of effective software engineering, nor respect what goes into software staff's processes and judgment.

This isn't only about hardware and software people. I think it might be a more general human problem, across disciplines. It makes sense that software people will most notice the version in which they're on a receiving end, which I'd guess is usually on the other end of hardware people or (like most everyone else) business people.

(Additional theory: if an organization doesn't understand and respect some skillset, they might not be able to discern strong candidates when hiring for roles needing that skillset, and random results could be self-reinforcing.)

Of course a meme isn't truth, and it can be unfair to individuals. And some of the best software work I've seen was by people with EE/CE/math/no degrees, and I was also blessed early in career by working with great hardware engineers who did respect software.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not very familiar with Australia. But thinking that high paying company like Atlassian which produces a very crappy software which I unfortunately deal daily. To me it shows high pay does not guarantee good quality software which many(not you) seems to be arguing here. That's a different problem. That's because you, the user, are not a customer of Atlassian. Companies and their micromanagers, however, love JIRA. Mi…

> Microsoft is in the same boat. Virtually no users of their products are actually their customers. That's how you get away with producing very crappy software, even if you hire the top talent. Such a weird logic. You’re saying that Microsoft produces crappy software even though they hire too talent. And they get away with it because the people who buy it don’t use it (i.e. by extension don’t care if they’re spending…

> by extension don’t care if they’re spending their money wisely

What's wise for the management isn't necessarily wise for end-users.

You can buy a product that's great for your business needs, that the users will absolutely hate. Both of those things can be true at the same time.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#90
post #16

I don't want any of this in a car. I want analog/tactile nobs, zero connectivity, and at most a power cable and holder to plug in a smart phone. Anyone left that provides this?

I wish that car reviewers would do their job and be critical. They rarely mention how bad the modern cars are becoming.

> I wish that car reviewers would do their job and be critical.

Well, it’s all about Youtube clicks now. Who shows more new cars faster. Being honest and critical does not help those individuals because that will cause that they’ll stop receiving cars for reviews.

You see. Today to review a car, you have to get s special press car. Can’t pick up a random rental and do a review for it.

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