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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#81

Post by krisoft »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46
krisoft wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show. What are you talking about? They kept it on property and law enforcement agents turned up (without a warant, inserting themselves into a civil dispute) and stole their goat. This is the contentious point. What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a g…

> What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them? You can’t use property rights to defend the parents. The goat had been auctioned. Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.

> The goat had been auctioned.

And the family argued that they have backed out of the auction before it started. Thus they haven't sold the goat. Thus they own the goat.

Are they right? I don't know. But it is far from as straight forward as you depict it to be.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#82

Post by vogt »

joe_guy wrote: post #63
bombcar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you sell someone a car, and then go take it back, you’re not violating a contact, you’re stealing a car. If you never deliver it, maybe that’s arguable but even then it could often be considered theft.

It would be more akin to selling someone a car, then telling them you're giving them the money back instead of the vehicle.

I disagree. As there is a sales office at a livestock auction who are paid by buyers expecting to take delivery of livestock they just paid for, a third party is involved. So it is not as cut and dry as “never mind, I’ll just give you your money back.”

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#83

Post by JumpCrisscross »

krisoft wrote: post #81
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them? You can’t use property rights to defend the parents. The goat had been auctioned. Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.

> The goat had been auctioned. And the family argued that they have backed out of the auction before it started. Thus they haven't sold the goat. Thus they own the goat. Are they right? I don't know. But it is far from as straight forward as you depict it to be.

There may be a claim against the Fair, though that depends on the auction rules. (I’d be stunned if they permit day-of withdrawal.)

As for the cops, they got a warrant [1]. (It’s unclear if they had the right to return the property to the presumptive legal owner.)

[1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#84

Post by nashashmi »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #52
nashashmi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You premise is kids don't want to eat animals but we force them to eat it. And they don't realize what that is.

My premise is that if we showed kids the realities of slaughterhouses and the impact that animal farming has on our biosphere and all the other externalities - I believe most would not want to support this. Imagine we had a children's book that would convey these facts in a manner kids understand more easily. And yet we hide these facts from children and we tell them to eat meat and drink milk because they need it fo…

This is an agenda.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#85

Post by JumpCrisscross »

joe_guy wrote: post #71
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it Every contract comes with its invisible body of law attached. For purchase and sale contracts, particularly those involving livestock auctions, property law comes into play. Withholding someone else’s property is criminal. The police showed discretion in not charging t…

They offered to make the other party whole. If they were careless and a wild animal killed the goat, theyd not of unconditionally committed a crime, theyd only need to make the other party whole.

> were careless and a wild animal killed the goat, theyd not of unconditionally committed a crime

Yes. Same way if I sell a car and then a tree falls on it, I didn’t commit fraud. But if I sell it and then refuse to deliver, the cops can execute a search-and-seizure warrant. Intent matters.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#86

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Hizonner wrote: post #69
vogt wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you’re repeating this comment in multiple places, but given that you are, I’ll repeat that this is not wrong, as I pointed out to you here: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=32704877&goto=threads%...

I'm repeating it because of the mind-boggling number of people making contrary assertions of "fact" based on nothing but how they would like things to be.

> the mind-boggling number of people making contrary assertions of "fact" based on nothing but how they would like things to be

A judge executed a warrant for the seizure of the animal.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#87

Post by ahahahahah »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #70
Hizonner wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts were straightforward and against your position. The girl was at all times the lawful owner of the goat. The goat was not legally sold. Even if she had not been, there was a good faith dispute, under which circumstances destruction of the disputed property is not the sort of thing that a court would allow. Which is why police need to not play cowboy. By the way, if your car is stolen and you see it in somebo…

> girl was at all times the lawful owner of the goat. The goat was not legally sold. The complaint leaves this far from settled. > why police need to not play cowboy They got a warrant [1]. > if your car is stolen and you see it in somebody's garage, the police are NOT just going to grab it and hand it back to you I have recovered my phone from someone’s house with the help of police. They coöperated and in exchange…

> They got a warrant [1].

They had no warrant to search or seize the goat from the farm that it was at [1].

[1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 11

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#88

Post by superchroma »

pigbearpig wrote: post #23

Completely unnecessary, a lot of adults had a chance to stop and think but they didn’t. How about we don’t hold 10-year old 4-H members to contracts (pretty sure they can’t anyway). Why are Sheriff deputies jumping on a case like this. Maybe the parents should not have let it get that far to be auctioned off, seems like they would have know before that their daughter considered it a pet.

Yes. The amount of people leaping straight to law in this thread is alarming, and I believe that that reflex is a cultural sickness.

Why do we as a people bother producing things like Hallmark movies if this is the awful reality of american life, devoid of sentimentality, kindness and patience? I hope people consume such media because they aspire for things to be better some day.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#89

Post by joe_guy »

vogt wrote: post #82
joe_guy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more akin to selling someone a car, then telling them you're giving them the money back instead of the vehicle.

I disagree. As there is a sales office at a livestock auction who are paid by buyers expecting to take delivery of livestock they just paid for, a third party is involved. So it is not as cut and dry as “never mind, I’ll just give you your money back.”

What happens if a wolf killed the goat? Surely they wouldn't be unconditionally criminal at that point.

Perhaps the third party needs to be made whole, also. IANAL but paying off contracts is extremely common.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#90

Post by uxcolumbo »

zmgsabst wrote: post #78
uxcolumbo wrote: post #8

I feel for this little girl - for losing her friend. I think if more parents would explain to kids where meat comes from most would react like Indie-Rose - another little kid[0] - who said: "I don't want to chop up animal people" And there are so many more kids realizing on their own what they are eating. They don't want to eat Peppa the pig & friends and yet we (mostly) force them to eat them. And there are so many…

You’re projecting hard. My niece happily eats the chicken she helped raise and watched be slaughtered and butchered. I also knew where meat came from as a child and that didn’t bother me. These grand moralistic pronouncements don’t seem true… and ignore that carrying them out would be the death of 35M cattle, 500M chickens, etc. A near total devastation of their species, who primarily exist as our food source. Should…

That's why I didn't say all kids - of course there are exceptions. And your example is not how most of us get animal meat. Kids in cities don't have a garden where they can raise their own chickens.

I'm talking about the realities of factory farming and slaughterhouses - where animals lead a miserable life.

And where did I say we should kill all remaining farm animals?

Of course it would be a transition away from large scale animal farming to more sustainable plant based farming and maybe some small family run animal farms.

It would mean removing the huge subsidies the meat and factory farm industry is getting and using those subsidies to help farmers transition to sustainable farming.

The UN, scientists from the IPCC and various other organizations urge us to reduce or eliminate our consumption of meat & dairy if we want to limit global heating to 1.5C. But hey, don't look up.

And what's wrong with having moral values that extend to other living beings on this planet? Killing animals and raising them in factory farms is cruel [0] - if you disagree then I'd like to hear how it's not cruel. Do you think an animal happily gives up their life so we can have a burger?

Why kill and enslave animals if we don't need to?

[0] Richard Dawkins: No Civilized Person Accepts Slavery So Why Do We Accept Animal Cruelty? | Big Think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SnBCPzBl0

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