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IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

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Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#541
post #103
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, I remember a black colleague created quite a sensation when he traveled in a non-touristic part of China.. That said, 'historical fictions' are usually much more fiction than historical.

Why go to fiction when we have real history, like Yasuke the ‘black samurai’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke

“When Yasuke was presented to Oda Nobunaga, the Japanese daimyō thought that his skin must have been colored with black ink. Nobunaga had him strip from the waist up and made him scrub his skin.[22] These events are recorded in a 1581 letter of the Jesuit Luís Fróis to Lourenço Mexia, and in the 1582 Annual Report of the Jesuit Mission in Japan, also by Fróis. These were published in Cartas que os padres e irmãos da Companhia de Jesus escreverão dos reynos de Japão e China II (1598), normally known simply as Cartas.[23][24] When Nobunaga realized that the African's skin was indeed black, he took an interest in him.”

You both seem in agreement actually.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she's a fairy, not a human .. what does her skin have to do with the time period or place in which she appeared? I mean, why can't we have a viking Black Panther and put Wakanda near Iceland? > The real problem is getting upset over the skin color of the actors and actresses playing fairies No one is upset for that, I, as Italian, am upset that some writer thinks that Collodi's story needed to be changed in ways th…

I want the best actor for a role, not one with the right skin color. You can hedge around the skincolor issue all you want, but that's the basis for your complaint.

If the best actor for Black Panther was white would you have an issue with that?

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, because of all of parts of the story that have been changed, _this_ is the part that must be kept - using white skin to equate to purity. And maybe the blue hair too, given she's named after her blue hair. > Do you agree that in our modern diverse society a black woman can be used to represent "purity"? Do you agree that for white here we mean white the colour, not the pink skin tone, which is inhuman? I am…

It seems pretty telling that you didn't actually answer what should have been a simple question. > And maybe the blue hair too, given she's named after her blue hair. So then... you agree? White skin representing purity is an aspect that _has_ to be kept, even when so many parts of the actual story have been changed and we've had ~140 years of society in-between? > Do you agree that for white here we mean white the c…

> It seems pretty telling that you didn't actually answer what should have been a simple question.

it is not.

I do think that a black woman can represent purity.

It simply doesn't fit the story as it has been written in the case of Pinocchio.

If you have to explain why things are the way they are, you're probably overthinking them.

Let's explore why the "representation era" is a smokescreen, shall we?

Imagine a no brainer: a black Tarzan.

There would be nothing strange about it, he's living in the jungle in Africa.

Except now you have to rewrite all his back story, because Tarzan is the son of a white British lord and his white British wife.

You can rewrite them too, as a black British lord and his black British wife.

Except now you also have to explain why in an all white community, the British lords, there is this odd couple.

Where do they come from?

How do they made it to becoming lords?

Are they black people living as white people or do they help the black community?

etc.

What's the problem?

The problem is that Tarzan was written by an American author of British Puritan ancestry, supporter of eugenics and scientific racism, beliefs that he used extensively in his books.

No matter how many black people they put in the story, they'll never be able to fix it.

They shouldn't adapt the story, they should write a new story or adapt a story where black people are already protagonists of the story.

That would actually mean something, but it wouldn't generate much attention I guess...

Less attention = less money (or a loss)

If Disney things that Pinocchio needs "fixing" they better leave it alone, because Pinocchio is a story from 150 years ago and it is not adherent to contemporary American standards in many ways.

Including the presence of a human eating monster fish.

See, simply putting "black person" in the cast doesn't add anything to any story,it doesn't improve representation, people don't actually feel more engaged, it's simple easy selling identity, but, tbf, it generate a lot of buzz, and buzz is all studios need right now, they won't admit they are remaking for the nth time an old story because are incapable of writing new ones, so they are distracting the audience with this silliness, hoping it will work.

Even Pixar is stagnating dramatically, take their Luca, directed by an Italian, set in Italy, I should feel oh so represented, but exactly because it plays with my culture trying to sell it to people who don't know it very well, I found it embarrassing.

The moral of this story is, I guess, that representation is overrated and there is much more to a movie than simply watching someone who looks like me for the sake of watching someone that vaguely looks like me.

> Ok, so is the portrayal in the 1940's Disney Pinocchio equally as outlandish considering she's just a white woman with blond hair? Would you be reacting the same way if they cast a white woman in the role?

Do you realize it is the same Disney both times, do you?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

> in which case the blue fairy already didn't have blue hair?

Yep.

Disney, being wrong since 1940s.

I wasn't born back then and we had no internet, but yeah, I prefer the Italian adaptation of Pinocchio with the blue fairy having blue hair.

> Because people like the Disney version of the story?

so there are times when cultural appropriation is actually OK?

As a member of the culture that story comes from, do I have a say or should I bow to the Disney overlords?

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contrast Galadriel who acts like a self righteous dickhead with Aragorn who was reluctant to accept his calling spent and three movies proving himself to be worthy of honor and love You mean three books, right? The difference here is that Aragorn was written by Tolkien, this show wasn't and has completely betrayed the original material. Race or gender swaps are not a big issue, but they become one if the purpose is…

This is a really disgusting and ignorant take. You should ask yourself why it matters so much to you what color skin the “Blue Fairy” has.

Generally because the wokeness of a few things like that is used as a stick to beat reviewers with, tarring all their valid complaints as racism.

See star wars where when people like a character with a black actor (Finn) it's ignored but when people dislike a character with a Korean actor (Rose) the studio/media line is that people are racist and hate asians.

If these adaptations were better their PR staff wouldn't need to blow up a few comments about race swapping by being the only thing they acknowledge, all to justify deleting the "racist criticisms" which they say are all that is plaguing their score. This is the tip of the criticism iceberg but it's all they're willing to engage with.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#545

To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…

I think the main problem is not the fact that they included divers cast. The main problem of modern shows is that they make it one of their main features. If the story and acting are good most people would not care of skin color. If diverse character are included organically into story - that is even better.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#546

To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…

I was watching Shameless the other day, and it's a drama-comedy about a dysfunctional poor family in the Chicago South Side. The family is white, and most of the main characters are white. This is really weird, if you've ever been to the South Side. But pretty much everyone quickly gets over that and ends up immersed in it. The issue with the Rings of Power and similar things isn't the anachronistic racial compositio…

> The issue with the Rings of Power and similar things isn't the anachronistic racial composition of the cast.

Note that it's a myth that everyone in pre-modern Europe was white. This is a white supremacist trope easily proven wrong by, say, digging into the representation of POC in medieval European art.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/06/994325620/going-medieval-on-w...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/5-myths-about-the-mi...

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s quite clear that that is YOUR problem. It’s funny when people like yourself claim “I’m not X” while then clear laying the case. if you don't see a problem in changing someone else's literature and culture (I am Italian and have read Pinocchio since I was a kid) than you probably don't know what respect for different cultures is. I would never think of a movie were Kunta Kinte is Dutch and is portrait by Chris…

>He was black. A quick search shows results saying his ancestors were all from northern Africa and the Middle East. He doesn't even look black in various busts/statues depicting him. He definitely looks north African. I'm pretty into Roman history, and this is the first time I've ever encountered someone suggesting there was a "black" (in the modern sense of the word) emperor.

Not commenting on Severus specifically, I’ve noticed that it seems really common in modern times for some reason for people to believe “white” means European, even though “white” people lived indigenously throughout North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia - including people with blue eyes or red/blonde hair.

Similarly, “African” is for some reason taken to exclusively mean “sub-Saharan” even though as you note most people would not identify most North African ethnic groups as black.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some people for whom the name Tolkien means something, usually something very specific and beloved. If those people aren't the core audience, why did they pay out of the nose to use that name in the first place? They could do a fantasy story written all in-house, and save themselves the money. If you're right, the audience should be almost as big, and they get to skip the part where they're accused of grave…

No, Tolkien-lovers aren't the core audience. Every casual viewer that enjoyed or have heard of Lord of the Rings are. Because that groups is about a billion people, not tens of thousands. Like me, I enjoyed the trilogy. I don't care if this new show isn't in "the spirit" of Tolkien (judged by someone far after his death, how much does that even mean?), I'm gonna watch it because I've heard of the IP before and want t…

For Rings of Power, I think the show itself is very confused on who the "actual audience" is. They tried to go after each segment, but the writers lacked the kind of skill and finesse needed to actually perform that miracle. (Which is possible, just really, really difficult.)

Every casual viewer I've spoken to is very meh on the show.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that even by your definition the core audience is people who enjoyed the movies and watch prestige TV shows especially when you consider the marketing campaign. That’s the people Amazon is targeting. Fans of LotR as a universe are a very small subsection of that.

It does not look like prestige though.

Call it like you want. I meant that it’s a TV show with a production budget of 60 millions dollars an episode without counting the rights purchase. It can’t really be compared to a traditional show.

This season is going to cost twice as much as the original three movies. That’s completely insane.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#550

To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…

I used to think that. I had a similar knee-jerk reaction when watching the Witcher.

But then, when stories are told and retold, it's not quite the same story each time. Jackson's LoTR follows the books closely, but is not the same. Some plots, like Tom Bombadil, are taken out. Some are modified, like the rivalry between Rohan and Gondor.

Partly it's cinematic but also partly it is about what story the reteller wants to tell. When the Orcs attack Rohan and civilians suffer and run away, it feels like Jackson wants to emphasize the suffering of "normal" people, which gets less attention in the books.

If the reteller has an angle to the story which introduced actors who don't fit the "Nordic white people" angle, it's up to them. It might not be a good angle to take for other reasons, but nothing wrong with having your own slant.

For me, my conclusion is that fantasy really is inclusive. If we had black Romans then why not black Elves? Maybe you can use that to say so etching interesting about race, in a context that mimics normal life but isn't bound by its constraints.

Or maybe it's just woke. I haven't seen the series yet.

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