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Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

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Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#291

Post by smaudet »

sudosysgen wrote: post #249
assttoasstmgr wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, we should encourage the new generation to all strive to become overpaid mediocre SWEs only in it for the quick cash, because the world doesn't have enough shitty food delivery apps. Hopefully I've painted this with a broad enough brush. There is more to a fulfilling career than money. In fact, an entire generation of SWEs who forgot the concepts of simplicity and efficiency, coding a never-ending avalan…

It's not really about quick cash. The truth is just that additional SWEs are right now more useful than additional fab engineers, in the US. It sucks to hear but it's true. There just aren't that many fab engineers necessary. Even TSMC employs a large part of SWE and IC designers, probably close to or more than process engineers. Fab engineers in the US are fairly disposable because their existence isn't based on mar…

I think its somewhere more in the middle - software bloat is getting to legendary proportions (why do I need 16+ gigs of RAM and a modern cpu+gpu to run a calculator that I could buy for 50 cents 20 years ago?), and the software bloat drives the hardware bloat.

The truth is we don't need fab engineers because the applications we need to build require already "solved" hardware problems which are mostly supplied en-masse by a the few, large companies.

But, the deeper truth is that we don't need any of it... I have been recently and somewhat pleasantly surprised by how little I truly need. E.g., a 200$ chrome-book satisfies most of my needs. I have much, much beefier computers, hundreds of gigs of ram and multi-core processor, etc...all a waste. (I work as a software engineer and regularly find myself maxing my cores for things I don't really need).

If I could build my own hardware and have it actually do things, man, that would _useful_. Unlike this giant rickety tower of babel we have built...

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#292

Post by Spooky23 »

novok wrote: post #259
imgabe wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. If your other option is to be a FAANG software engineer, sure, do that instead. For the vast swathes of the country where the available jobs are some mix of retail/warehouse low wage drudgery, long haul trucking, drug dealing / fraud / other crime, or welfare, working in semiconductors might be a welcome and attractive option.

The vast majority of people who are smart enough and have the work ethic to finish an EE degree are also smart enough to become a FANG engineer. EE is harder than computer science by far. So for the set of people who can be fab engineers, live in the USA and speak English, yes, the FANG engineer option is always there.

Yes, but if you didn’t go to the handful of acceptable schools, it doesn’t matter much how smart you are.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#293

Post by galangalalgol »

e63f67dd-065b wrote: post #286
mensetmanusman wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying don’t go into medicine because you have to be a resident nurse along the way. Semiconductor fabrication is the most advanced engineering humanity has ever attempted, so you will reach your threshold eventually solving problems that might not have answers (depending on your role). Not everyone wants to do that though, and the world needs implementers and those focused on details. Pay? Could be high…

I’ve heard it describes as a nerd trap: salaries are low and working conditions meh precisely because nerds want to work on the most advanced engineering humanity has ever attempted.

Its only a trap if you walk in unaware. If you acknowledge part of your pay is being excited by your work, then it's a choice. We don't expect game development to pay the same as writing payment portals for a faang, even if it's harder, because we understand the task itself is part of the exchange. Jobs people enjoy will always pay less than those they enjoy less, given they both have the same qualifications.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#294

Post by elcomet »

galangalalgol wrote: post #290
sudosysgen wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about quick cash. The truth is just that additional SWEs are right now more useful than additional fab engineers, in the US. It sucks to hear but it's true. There just aren't that many fab engineers necessary. Even TSMC employs a large part of SWE and IC designers, probably close to or more than process engineers. Fab engineers in the US are fairly disposable because their existence isn't based on mar…

This seems obviously true. It only seems unjust because we have this idea that tasks that are more intellectually challenging should pay more. That isn't how supply and demand work. If you need twice as many typists as are graduating, but only need a quarter of the radiologists that complete residency, well then typists will be paid far more than radiologists. We have an excess of people who want to work hardware, sp…

> we have this idea that tasks that are more intellectually challenging should pay more

Why do you have this idea ? I'm not sure it sounds more "just" than saying, for example, that tasks that are physically more challenging should pay more, or humanly more challenging should pay more, etc..

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#295

Post by haggy102 »

smaudet wrote: post #291
sudosysgen wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about quick cash. The truth is just that additional SWEs are right now more useful than additional fab engineers, in the US. It sucks to hear but it's true. There just aren't that many fab engineers necessary. Even TSMC employs a large part of SWE and IC designers, probably close to or more than process engineers. Fab engineers in the US are fairly disposable because their existence isn't based on mar…

I think its somewhere more in the middle - software bloat is getting to legendary proportions (why do I need 16+ gigs of RAM and a modern cpu+gpu to run a calculator that I could buy for 50 cents 20 years ago?), and the software bloat drives the hardware bloat. The truth is we don't need fab engineers because the applications we need to build require already "solved" hardware problems which are mostly supplied en-mas…

I'm all for sarcasm but please show me a calculator that needs 16GB of RAM. Your input detracts from the original argument and doesn't progress the discussion at all.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#296

Post by ekianjo »

sudosysgen wrote: post #268
ekianjo wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

phD are not what they used to be

If you can get a STEM PhD you can probably get into FAANG. Sure they're not what they used to be, they're still difficult to get. And they require many of the same skills as modern programming interviews.

> nd they require many of the same skills as modern programming interviews.

I don't know, I have seen numerous PHDs who can't competently write any piece of code, I'm beginning to think it's a feature, not a coincidence.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#297

Post by onion2k »

haggy102 wrote: post #295
smaudet wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its somewhere more in the middle - software bloat is getting to legendary proportions (why do I need 16+ gigs of RAM and a modern cpu+gpu to run a calculator that I could buy for 50 cents 20 years ago?), and the software bloat drives the hardware bloat. The truth is we don't need fab engineers because the applications we need to build require already "solved" hardware problems which are mostly supplied en-mas…

I'm all for sarcasm but please show me a calculator that needs 16GB of RAM. Your input detracts from the original argument and doesn't progress the discussion at all.

I made a calculator app in Electron once...

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#298

Post by MikePlacid »

dougabug wrote: post #190
xwdv wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people cannot escape. And it often surprises me how many people really don’t want to work in software.

I think a lot of people don’t want to work in software because of the perception or reality of the software development systems that they have been exposed to. If the right tools were invented for them, they might take to it like ducks to water.

And then what? Let’s consider the following.

1. There is a limit of complexity that a given person or a given team can deal with happily. Below the threshold work satisfaction is great: “I am solving more and more complicated tasks”, after the threshold a stress eats job satisfaction: “I do not want to open my emails in the morning - what if I will not be able to solve some new problem”.

2. Complexity of each successful product grows until this threshold is reached. The successful product is used by more and more people. The successful product is put as a building stone in more and more complicated projects.

3. Because of 1 and 2 a successful SE is an unhappy person running under a lot of stress.

Now let’s see how decreasing the complexity of tools changes the situation. Bad tools: 50% of the complexity of the situation is caused by the tools, 50% - by the complexity of the product. Let’s improve tools twice. Now the tools create only 25% of the original complexity, and since the product causes 50% of the original complexity overall situation improved to 75% total of the original one. The engineer can have a happy life? No so fast. Since the product is successful, the is a great demand for new features. The complexity of the product increases to 75% and the programmer lives under stress again.

So, better tools allow to create more complicated, more useful products. But they do not improve - in the long run - the quality of programmers’ lifes. So if a person is not happy with current tools, she will not be happy to be a programmer. Or so it seems to me.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#299

Post by [deleted] »

trinovantes wrote: post #220
graton wrote: post #42

Tangentially related is the lack of young people entering the "trades" (plumbing, electrical, construction, etc). Can't help but think that now is probably a good time to enter a "trade" due to the lack of people who are doing that.

In my area trades are almost impossible to enter if you do not have family/friend that's willing to take you on as an apprentice. It pays well but is also heavily gated by nepotism.

[deleted]

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#300

Post by AlphaSite »

dougabug wrote: post #181
klyrs wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take, apparently: VHDL/Verilog developers should make 5x what JavaScript developers make, and not the other way around.

If it weren’t for pesky things like supply and demand. If the pay is so low, it’s kind of curious that the supply doesn’t drop.

Prestige can confound this in the short or medium term.
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