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Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

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Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#61
post #52
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hesitate to divide the world into "FPGA guys" and "non-FPGA guys". It's a continuum of computing power; CPU DSP FPGA, and one moves up and down it as the task varies and technology changes. If anything defines an "FPGA guy" is choice of language. Historically FPGAs have been programmed with an HDL, such as VHDL or Verilog, because these languages are concurrent meaning they handle parallel systems. My prediction is…

As an FPGA guy, I want to ask this - what software programming languages, models, etc. exist to support the description of fundamentally concurrent processing, whether task-parallel, data-parallel, hybrid, or "other" (whatever that may be) that will allow for the supplanting of HDLs? I know that there's been long-standing efforts to do C-to-HDL but to my knowledge the successes of this approach have been limited to r…

I had some fun with MyHDL several months ago, which lets you compile Python code (using MyHDL) into Verilog (or VHDL). http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php (Some flip flop examples: http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/cookbook:ff )

There's nothing inherently special about Verilog/VHDL as concurrent languages--I imagine a very slick-looking Clojure module could be built as well. MyHDL let me reason about the program much more easily than a Verilog equivalent, all around the block in the cases of synchronous execution, blocking/non-blocking statements and integers ( http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/why ). Also, (mostly) painless simulation and tests!

Though I would tend to agree that a C to Verilog system would be a step back; MyHDL makes heavy use of decorators and generators and other goodies that come from the functional programming world. C doesn't really work well there; you can hack it in but at that point you might as well just use Verilog.

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#62

In past Forth threads I've complained the the Forth model for a computer seems just too at odds with how modern CPUs actually work for me to want to learn it. Well, I look at this thing and its like the soft draft of the future slipping underneath the door, whispering that maybe I should learn Forth after all.

Its worth noting that a number of popular VM's, eg, the JVM, have Forth-like stack-based instruction sets.

OTOH, LLVM is, if anything, a register machine, so as to better map to the register machines we're implementing in hardware right now.

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#63
post #29

I think this sounds ridiculously cool and at $20 I could probably afford to play around with it. But I have no knowledge of hardware, just programming. To me chips just look like thin green rectangular prisms. How would I get it to actually, you know, do stuff?

Call up Woz, I hear he was good at that stuff.

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We are now to the point where we have almost more gates than we know what to do with, limits of von Neumann architecture (and its underlying mathematics of recursive functions) as a mental framework for our thinking about computing.

You've piqued my curiosity; could you elaborate please?

I shall try, but this stuff gets really hairy, really really fast.

Von Neumann architecture is what almost all computers use today: you have (very roughly) an ALU (arithmetic logic unit) hooked up to a memory bank which stores both program data and the instructions the program consist of.

Now you can add a couple of cores to that, but you pretty soon start to run into problems -- threads which try to access the same data, race conditions, etc.

But the biggest problem is that under the Von Neumann architecture all memory is shared so any thread can access any other threads memory. This puts rather drastic limits on how much benefit you can get from new cores.

You also run into issues like the limited speed it is possible to access the main memory banks with, etc, etc. This is possible to compensate to some degree with caches, but they have their own problems.

But the fundamental problem with them is that they were from and of an era where the clock speed kept increasing and increasing.

Today we have a situation where transistors gets smaller and smaller. But if you are trying to use this to make a traditional CPU with these new transistors, all this gets you is a really small chip.

What we need is an architecture inspired by something else. Personally I am kinda hoping it will be some form of message sending -- you run a lot of small (green) threads which each have their own memory as well as the ability to send and receive packages of information to/from the other cores of on the CPU.

You can have access to a (comparatively large but slower) shared memory bank too (like RAM today).

I like it because it works well with how you would design a cluster of computers (where you cannot afford the illusion of shared memory), how computation is organized under the actor model (which I prefer to threads) and it would be possible to implement with not that much new changes in the CPU.

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#65
post #4

Love the guy and his passion for its chips, but this 144-computer chip looks like a solution in search of a problem: what is trying to solve? How's the inter-core communication handled? On the other hand, creating weird chips like these, just because you can, is awesome and stimulating a hacker's mind.

Not sure if it's a legitimate "problem" or not, but how about the availability of single chips, or 10-packs? Assuming someone wanted to produce a prototype board, but didn't want to purchase 1000's of CPU chips, are there many CPU chip makers who offer low quantities like this?

[deleted]

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#66
post #9

Well if you ever wanted to be 'out there' Chuck's processor would be a great place to start. Chuck Moore invented Forth and has been building machines that can run Forth efficiently for years. Think of it as a Turing machine that can do useful work. He has pushed the edge of computation per watt for years. That being said, I've heard him talk about this chips for years and it is great to see it finally see the light…

It might make a good bitcoin mining platform?

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#67
post #9

Well if you ever wanted to be 'out there' Chuck's processor would be a great place to start. Chuck Moore invented Forth and has been building machines that can run Forth efficiently for years. Think of it as a Turing machine that can do useful work. He has pushed the edge of computation per watt for years. That being said, I've heard him talk about this chips for years and it is great to see it finally see the light…

It might make a good bitcoin mining platform?

Not really, it's underpowered and mining lends itself better to vector-oriented processors (like GPUs) rather than CPUs.

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#68
post #9

Well if you ever wanted to be 'out there' Chuck's processor would be a great place to start. Chuck Moore invented Forth and has been building machines that can run Forth efficiently for years. Think of it as a Turing machine that can do useful work. He has pushed the edge of computation per watt for years. That being said, I've heard him talk about this chips for years and it is great to see it finally see the light…

It might make a good bitcoin mining platform?

[deleted]

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#69
post #9

Well if you ever wanted to be 'out there' Chuck's processor would be a great place to start. Chuck Moore invented Forth and has been building machines that can run Forth efficiently for years. Think of it as a Turing machine that can do useful work. He has pushed the edge of computation per watt for years. That being said, I've heard him talk about this chips for years and it is great to see it finally see the light…

It might make a good bitcoin mining platform?

At $20 you'd only need a single decade to make up the costs :)

Re: Forth Inventor Chuck Moore's $20 144 core CPU now in full production

#70
post #52
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hesitate to divide the world into "FPGA guys" and "non-FPGA guys". It's a continuum of computing power; CPU DSP FPGA, and one moves up and down it as the task varies and technology changes. If anything defines an "FPGA guy" is choice of language. Historically FPGAs have been programmed with an HDL, such as VHDL or Verilog, because these languages are concurrent meaning they handle parallel systems. My prediction is…

As an FPGA guy, I want to ask this - what software programming languages, models, etc. exist to support the description of fundamentally concurrent processing, whether task-parallel, data-parallel, hybrid, or "other" (whatever that may be) that will allow for the supplanting of HDLs? I know that there's been long-standing efforts to do C-to-HDL but to my knowledge the successes of this approach have been limited to r…

Communicating Sequential Processes, perhaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_sequential_proces...

It's like Erlang, maybe not as HDL-like as you were thinking. But, I don't see why you couldn't model every little gate as a process (obviously impractical), so it theoretically could fit.

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