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Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

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Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#71

Post by photochemsyn »

bhawks wrote: post #68
photochemsyn wrote: post #45

Time for another round of quantitative easing, easy money, the whole government bonds -> central banks -> private banks routine, perhaps? The banks can then extend loans to power users at low rates, so they can pay the higher energy fees? Of course that's nonsense, but that's been the response of central banks to crises over the past decade (see Nomi Prins, Collusion). The problem is that there isn't enough physical…

> That means solar/wind/storage has to become the dominant energy system, and that's the general trend: Solar and batteries require mining rare earth elements which also present similar supply chain and ecological concerns. Without storage wind and solar simply cannot meet reliability and demand expectations. The problem has many more complicating factors then most people are willing to discuss.

Monocrystalline silicon panels (by far the best option on the market today) do not require rare earth elements (the lanthanides), period. Iron-phosphate-lithium batteries do not require them, and nor do wind turbines. There are also a variety of utility-scale storage solutions, none of which require rare earth elements.

For more accurate information on renewables, I'd recommend:

https://www.studyallenergy.com/

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#72

Post by zppln »

sorenjan wrote: post #63
tmikaeld wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a country with a lot of wood, finding a farmer willing to sell some even at the worst of times, are easier than any alternative.

There's sellers that are already out of stock. Firewood needs to dry for months before use, and like everything else when there's high demand there will be high prices. https://www.aftonbladet.se/minekonomi/a/66p5LQ/ved-rusning-l...

Maybe I can flip my 3 cubic meters of really shitty pine wood for a new graphics card this winter..? Not gonna afford to run it for a while though...

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#73

Post by tmikaeld »

selectodude wrote: post #70
tmikaeld wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, read again, 1600 KwH energy consumption, not cost.

At 1 euro per kWh

Well, almost, the top today was 1€/KwH, the average is 0.75€.

But the consumption is only ~800KwH for August.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#74

Post by tmikaeld »

lostmsu wrote: post #69
tmikaeld wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fair thing would be for Swedes to pay pre-export prices.

I think long term it already is fair: the extra profits should end up in Sweden economy, and citizens should come out wealthier as a whole.

You think it's fair that elders are forced to sell their houses, because they cannot afford to pay for basic utility? [0]

[0] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/helsingborg/han-flyttar-fr...

And that it's fair that businesses have to shut down? [1][2][3]

[1] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/helsingborg/klippans-bruk-...

[2] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/pizzan-kostar-300-kronor-...

[3] https://www.smp.se/lessebo/lessebo-paper-stoppar-produktione...

This is just the beginning by the way and 4 out of 5 jobs are created by small-medium businesses in Sweden. [4]

https://www.di.se/pressreleaser/2022/06/10/foretagarforbunde...

Socialism is nice until you run out of other peoples money.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#75

Post by selectodude »

tmikaeld wrote: post #73
selectodude wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 1 euro per kWh

Well, almost, the top today was 1€/KwH, the average is 0.75€. But the consumption is only ~800KwH for August.

Yeah, regardless. I pay $0.11/kWh so I was just utterly gobsmacked at the cost of electricity in Northern Europe. And most of our electricity generation is nuclear.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#76

Post by lostmsu »

tmikaeld wrote: post #74
lostmsu wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think long term it already is fair: the extra profits should end up in Sweden economy, and citizens should come out wealthier as a whole.

You think it's fair that elders are forced to sell their houses, because they cannot afford to pay for basic utility? [0] [0] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/helsingborg/han-flyttar-fr... And that it's fair that businesses have to shut down? [1][2][3] [1] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/helsingborg/klippans-bruk-... [2] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/pizzan-kostar-300-kronor-... [3] https://www.smp.se/lessebo…

I am in the US and bought my current house from an older couple who could not keep up with the costs of having it, utilities definitely being a part of it. I do not know Swedish, but Google translate calls the house in the story you linked "a villa", which sounds to me like a rather upscale place. Make what you want out of it. As far as I can see this particular situation has nothing to do with socialism.

The link numbered 2 starts with this in Google translate: "Already in February, the Granholm couple from Öland noticed that electricity prices were skyrocketing. Even though they were only open for a few days that month, they received an electricity bill of SEK 30,000." What kind of successful pizza business is open only for a few days a month? Doesn't this make you suspicious about electricity being the biggest cause of the closure, and not just the final kick to the already dying business?

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#77

Post by TMWNN »

photochemsyn wrote: post #45

Time for another round of quantitative easing, easy money, the whole government bonds -> central banks -> private banks routine, perhaps? The banks can then extend loans to power users at low rates, so they can pay the higher energy fees? Of course that's nonsense, but that's been the response of central banks to crises over the past decade (see Nomi Prins, Collusion). The problem is that there isn't enough physical…

>Time for another round of quantitative easing, easy money, the whole government bonds -> central banks -> private banks routine, perhaps? The banks can then extend loans to power users at low rates, so they can pay the higher energy fees?

>Of course that's nonsense

Setting aside the inflationary and other side effects of doing so, this is not a case of "government can cap the bills" or "government can provide subsidies to help pay for higher bills" or, even, "government can ration electricity". *SUBSIDIES DON'T MATTER IF THERE IS NO SUPPLY*.

So many people in /r/europe (and their sycophants elsewhere) are in denial. Check out this /r/ireland thread. https://np.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/x1mbq9/small_busine...> Normally this sort of post—image with accompanying story of person/small business required to pay huge costs to giant company—is the closest thing to karma bait. There would be an endless stream of replies blaming big business/greedy companies/capitalism/etc., etc.

But not this time. Yes, there are some such comments, but also a striking number coming up with all sorts of "explanations" (all wrong, as far as I can tell) for why the bill is actually the restaurant's fault.

Why they are in so much denial, I don't know. Do they really think that if they don't acknowledge that energy bills across Ireland, the UK, and the continent are skyrocketing, maybe it will all go away? Or do they (given the Ukraine flag in the posted tweet's profile) think that if they publicly acknowledge that it's happening, doing so will contribute to Putin's victory and Ukraine's defeat?

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#78

Post by TMWNN »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #35
VoodooJuJu wrote: post #20

Shoulda woulda coulda aside, what does this mean going forward? For people who can't afford fuel - what will happen? Will they just not heat their home? Stock up on some proper animal hair clothing and blankets? What about their plumbing, frozen pipes?

Most governments are providing some sort of monetary help, so, I suspect: - some people will be mostly unaffected; - others will not be able to heat their houses as much, e.g. they'll only be able to heat up a couple of rooms to a lower temperature than usual; - a bunch of people will decide to live together (e.g. parents and kids) to save money; - some will not be able to pay their bills - energy companies will have…

>Most governments are providing some sort of monetary help

This is not a case of "government can cap the bills" or "government can provide subsidies to help pay for higher bills" or, even, "government can ration electricity". Setting aside the inflationary and other side effects of doing so, *SUBSIDIES DON'T MATTER IF THERE IS NO SUPPLY*.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#79

Post by tmikaeld »

selectodude wrote: post #75
tmikaeld wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, almost, the top today was 1€/KwH, the average is 0.75€. But the consumption is only ~800KwH for August.

Yeah, regardless. I pay $0.11/kWh so I was just utterly gobsmacked at the cost of electricity in Northern Europe. And most of our electricity generation is nuclear.

Yeah, it’s horrifying and life altering for many

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#80

Post by tmikaeld »

lostmsu wrote: post #76
tmikaeld wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think it's fair that elders are forced to sell their houses, because they cannot afford to pay for basic utility? [0] [0] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/helsingborg/han-flyttar-fr... And that it's fair that businesses have to shut down? [1][2][3] [1] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/helsingborg/klippans-bruk-... [2] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/pizzan-kostar-300-kronor-... [3] https://www.smp.se/lessebo…

I am in the US and bought my current house from an older couple who could not keep up with the costs of having it, utilities definitely being a part of it. I do not know Swedish, but Google translate calls the house in the story you linked "a villa", which sounds to me like a rather upscale place. Make what you want out of it. As far as I can see this particular situation has nothing to do with socialism. The link nu…

It has everything to do with socialism, because the state is the main beneficiary when electricity is tripple taxed (Taxed on buy, sale (double) and transport) and are making billions while people are becoming homeless (requiring welfare to survive). If you also remove businesses that drive tax to pay for welfare, who's then going to pay for everything?

They where open during times when electricity cost was at the lowest and yes, of course such hours would never work, it just drives in the point even more, restaurants are unsustainable at high energy costs. Keep in mind that low-pay jobs are non-existent in Sweden due to high lowest-salary regulations, a huge difference from US.

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