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Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

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Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#231

Post by angst_ridden »

josephh wrote: post #209
angst_ridden wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a lot of people call "cancel culture" is exactly that, though. For example, when a comedian says something that insults a class of people who are customers of the comedian's sponsor and the sponsor projects lost revenue from that class of people, they stop funding that comedian's work. That's both "cancel culture" and the consequences of free speech.

To clarify, I'm referring to entities that tout themselves to be a platform for providing customers to express their opinions. For your example, I think a better analogy would be a venue owner that publicly advertises their space to be rented out for events and/or performances. In such case, the owner should have no right to refuse the comedian from hosting a show even if they find them objectionable.

It's an interesting problem. If a venue owner rents to anyone, they're obligated to rent to everyone?

I can see this being complicated. One venue owner won't want to host a show because of the race/religion/ethnicity of a comedian. That would be a problem. But what if a band has a reputation for riling up crowds until they riot and tear places apart? Is it a problem for the venue owner to refuse to let them have a show? What if the potential violence isn't as direct, like the venue is threatened with a boycott if a person is allowed to hold a political rally there? Should they be allowed to deny that rally?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#232

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

hotpotamus wrote: post #226
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if I insult my neighbour, I exercise free speech and create a toxic social environment. But how does that relate to the phenomenons I outlined to contextualize the toxicity I'm referring to?

I mean, do employers not have freedom of association? I don't understand how you'd compel them to employ people whose speech they don't like for instance.

The rights of one man end where the rights of another begin. I don't believe the right of an employer to freedom of association supersede that of his employees to their financial safety and the survival of their family. As for compelling them to not fire their employees under specific circumstances you use labour laws.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#233

Post by shadowgovt »

immibis wrote: post #191
shadowgovt wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing forum moderation can help nip such antisemitism in the bud by deplatforming those trying to normalize it in the 21st century.

Which is a loss of freedom of expression, hence the whole debate. Plus, don't be so naive as to think anti-semites will directly say "we should gas the Jews". They won't say that, because they know they'll get banned. They'll say the closest thing they're allowed to say.

Don't need to tell me twice, because I watch them say it.

And when forum moderators catch savvy to the new lingo, they get banned.

Hate mutates and the tools we use to combat it mutate too. Like any fight against malicious users, it's measure-countermeasure.

And yes, people absolutely lose the freedom to express that other people aren't people using someone else's tools. That shouldn't be a debate because it's not up for debate; we already danced this tango nearly a hundred years ago and after that as well. Dehumanizing people is not tolerable, as axiom.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#234

Post by throwawayacc2 »

tailrecursion wrote: post #221
at_a_remove wrote: post #42

I find the whole thing perversely enjoyable. If you want to test someone, allow them to succeed. Give them power. When I was young, the left was the underdog, and they sure sounded like a nice bunch of people ... kindness, forgiving, can't we all get along? Free speech, our country was founded on it! The wheel turns and now they are in power. Suddenly it is cancel, no contact, punch Nazis, hang the traitors, and so o…

It's telling to see this comment suppressed with not even a hint as to why. Feminism has changed drastically over the years. The gay movement has been taken over by toxic individuals. Occupy Wall St was taken over. Antifa shootings, BLM riots, lockdowns, get vaccinated or lose your job, and the redefinition of words, all occurred recently. Biden's rhetoric re Trump voters, 80+ million people, is very interesting. We'…

> Feminism has changed drastically over the years

This is so true. All your comment is true, but, the mention of feminism really caught my eye.

So, I’m a man. But once in a blue moon I’ll visit ovarit. It’s a reddit clone but for gender critical feminists. To me, the women there seem perfectly reasonable. I genuinely like seeing what they post there and it makes sense to me. They believe women are adult female humans, they believe men and women should have the same rights and they believe societal roles should not be mandatory. This to me feels intuitively correct and, well, normal.

However, these women are considered monsters in many places. Mainstream platforms ban them. They are disparaged as TERFs and called hateful. And I genuinely don’t understand how it got to this point. How did feminism mutate from “equal rights” and “don’t force societal expectations on me” to … whatever the hell we have today?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#235

Post by dleslie »

vkou wrote: post #171
bcrosby95 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that he wasn't talking about people saying dumb shit on twitter. He's talking about people using intolerance to justify physical violence against people.

You are wrong. That's exactly the point he is making. That we have to take action against intolerance before it gets to the point of physical violence. > But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational…

I've often considered that his paradox lays in the fact that he advocates for intolerance towards those who advocate intolerance.

But in practice it needn't be a paradox, in practice, would it? In the same way that we grant the state a monopoly on violence, we could grant the state a monopoly on intolerance. And we do, here in Canada, by way of hate speech laws and charter protections for various protected aspects of persons. The state is intolerant of intolerance, and it works pretty ok.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#236

Post by russdill »

paisawalla wrote: post #146
russdill wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a super broad brush. Throwing in the "exactly" makes this particularly overbroad. It's perfectly OK to think that people with certain views are intolerable and that isn't some path to fascism. There are people I don't want to associate with because of views I deem intolerable. I think the necessary addition is "and they need to be stopped".

Eliminating the word fascism from discourse, and replacing it with a description of the thoughts and attitudes you find intolerable, would clarify your claims are here. It's not an invitation to argue about those views mind you, but if you had said "whoa, it's totally fine if we don't have racism, sexism, transphobia, islamophobia, etc expressed anywhere in polite mainstream society" then suddenly it becomes clear 1.…

Tolerated is taking on a wide range is meanings here. On one the of the spectrum, absolutely no, part of a free society is not forcing people to tolerate speech they find intolerable. If I go to a TED talk about fixing poverty and the speaker talks about his plan for eugenics and a final solution, I will walk out. In the other end of the spectrum, the government may disappear people who's speech they or the society that votes them in intolerable.

You can be anywhere along that spectrum without it being some inevitable slide towards the government disappearing people. Freedom to associate is a form of expression.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#237

Post by [deleted] »

etchalon wrote: post #99
lxe wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your prediction came true! Would be cool if reading the article was a requirement before posting a comment. Maybe use a summarizer AI to create a short quiz that people would need to answer before posting?

I feel like that would just eliminate 80% of HN comments.

[deleted]

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#238

Post by hotpotamus »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #232
hotpotamus wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, do employers not have freedom of association? I don't understand how you'd compel them to employ people whose speech they don't like for instance.

The rights of one man end where the rights of another begin. I don't believe the right of an employer to freedom of association supersede that of his employees to their financial safety and the survival of their family. As for compelling them to not fire their employees under specific circumstances you use labour laws.

Yeah, I'd like someone to give me money while I yell whatever I want at them, but I don't see it happening. Good luck with that.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#239

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

hotpotamus wrote: post #238
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rights of one man end where the rights of another begin. I don't believe the right of an employer to freedom of association supersede that of his employees to their financial safety and the survival of their family. As for compelling them to not fire their employees under specific circumstances you use labour laws.

Yeah, I'd like someone to give me money while I yell whatever I want at them, but I don't see it happening. Good luck with that.

Your workplace behaviour doesn't fall under the scope of the laws we're discussing but thanks, I've been enjoying it while I worked all over Europe.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#240

Post by [deleted] »

ReptileMan wrote: post #197
etchalon wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that would just eliminate 80% of HN comments.

The first line of the article is Internet blackouts. Strategic lawsuits against journalists. Regulations restricting the activities of NGOs. The weaponisation of health and security policies. These are all strategies that governments around the world are increasingly using to curtail the right to dissent, protest, and even just access information. Most of those are made easier by the current structure of the internet…

[deleted]
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