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Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

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Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#191

Post by immibis »

shadowgovt wrote: post #158
debacle wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took 40 years for growing antisemitism in Europe to lead to the Holocaust.

Good thing forum moderation can help nip such antisemitism in the bud by deplatforming those trying to normalize it in the 21st century.

Which is a loss of freedom of expression, hence the whole debate.

Plus, don't be so naive as to think anti-semites will directly say "we should gas the Jews". They won't say that, because they know they'll get banned. They'll say the closest thing they're allowed to say.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#192

Post by ben_w »

rascul wrote: post #179
polski-g wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too high... You can be put in a cage, for words, in the UK.

I don't know any specific examples off the top of my head but I'm fairly sure that's true for the US as well. The bar might be higher, though.

Executed, even: https://daily.jstor.org/sentenced-to-death-and-other-tales-f...

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#193

Post by jessaustin »

krapp wrote: post #72
jiscariot wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Popper's POT drivel the only talking point the anti-free speech people have these days? Every time. Sometimes with the associated cartoon.

Is the only rebuttal the other side has ad hominems and slippery slope fallacies? You can disagree with the Paradox of Tolerance but almost no one who does ever even attempts to do so in good faith.

...almost no one who does can even attempt to do so in good faith.

This seems a bit overblown. You can't imagine that someone with radically different experiences than your own could genuinely object to some aspect of this "Paradox"? What dastardly scheme do they advance by pretending to so object?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#194

Post by immibis »

Natsu wrote: post #89
OrangeMonkey wrote: post #83

Every time a topic comes up reminding folks that suggesting free speech was once a good thing, every person who wants to silence others starts spamming "The Paradox of Tolerance." You see - we have to silence people because reasons. Lets see - havent tested yet. CTRL-F, PARADOX: ok, we are sitting at 26 times mentioned. I welcome the return of the days when wanting free speech is lauded - but I am afraid at what is g…

The Paradox of Tolerance said that people have, based on their right to self-defense, the ability to defend themselves against those who would shut down speech with fists or pistols . In short, it's aimed at protecting people from literal brown shirt tactics of assaulting people for speaking. Those invoking it now are pretty far afield from what it espouses.

The word "would" indicates targets who haven't committed the crime yet, so I'd say it's being used correctly.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#195

Post by core-utility »

greenthrow wrote: post #159

This is not talking about bogus "my freedoms" claims of people being kicked off Twitter, it's talking about actual loss of freedom of expression, where the government imprisons people for saying the wrong things. In the US we have loss sight of what real freedom of expression means.

One can still say that freedoms they had are being restricted or backsliding while acknowledging that other people are far less free.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#196

Post by wikitopian »

CJefferson wrote: post #144
wikitopian wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand you believe there's a compelling case for placing your hand over my mouth. I'm sure you earnestly believe your case, and think placing your hand over my mouth is the moral, right, and just thing to do. Time will tell if you're capable of holding it there.

So what exactly is the type of thing you want to say that kitsunesoba is forbidding you from saying?

The Ohio river has more volume and the Missouri river has greater length, so it's total bullshit that it's called the Mississippi all the way to the gulf.

They don't want you to know this.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#197

Post by ReptileMan »

etchalon wrote: post #99
lxe wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your prediction came true! Would be cool if reading the article was a requirement before posting a comment. Maybe use a summarizer AI to create a short quiz that people would need to answer before posting?

I feel like that would just eliminate 80% of HN comments.

The first line of the article is

Internet blackouts. Strategic lawsuits against journalists. Regulations restricting the activities of NGOs. The weaponisation of health and security policies. These are all strategies that governments around the world are increasingly using to curtail the right to dissent, protest, and even just access information.

Most of those are made easier by the current structure of the internet.

So the power that Twitter yields is important. A lot of the dictators actually rule with wide enough popular support as to be legitimate. And their mission of thought suppression is made easier by the censorship infrastructure already build to deal with the cancel culture demand. You cannot separate both.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#198

Post by thfuran »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #183
thfuran wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting kicked off social media is essentially having your ability to engage in public discourse removed, or at least severely restricted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You seem to be replying to a comment that I didn't write. I said nothing whatsoever about what the most extreme sort of punishment for speech is or about the maximal extent to which speech can be restricted. I certainly never suggested that being banned from twitter is either of those things.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#199

Post by immibis »

Georgelemental wrote: post #76
tgv wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you're talking about independent media, your whataboutism doesn't make much sense.

"Independent" of who? Who gets to decide what is "independent" and therefore deserving of the human right to free speech, versus what is "not independent" and therefore subhuman and not deserving of rights?

Reality does. God am I sick of this "who will decide" nonsense. There is no reality where RT is anything but Russian state-sponsored propaganda.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#200

Post by amanaplanacanal »

mistermann wrote: post #87
dleslie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popper also sets the limit fairly clearly in his description of the paradox, and it's: > But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer argu…

> for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols How this typically works out in the real world is a lot like the pot calling the kettle black though - ideologues and c…

> teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols

I would say that this is the important line to be drawn.

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