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Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

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Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#161

Post by whyoh »

faxmeyourcode wrote: post #94

Seeing the UK score an 82 on the freedom scale, whatever that means, next to the United States' score of 84, is enough to discredit whatever wacky measure they've created for "freedom" in this article. https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/02/social_media_arrests_...

Yeah, I don't think the UK deserves a place in the highest tier for "free expression".

https://fee.org/articles/uk-man-arrested-for-malicious-commu...

Some European countries have questionable laws too, but I haven't seen anything quite as extreme.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#162

Post by immigrantheart »

colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

Very naive.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#163

Post by colechristensen »

MrsPeaches wrote: post #136
colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

Can I just clarify, are you talking about when states do this or when society does this ? The article is (from my reading) quite clearly talking about states that are closing down freedom of expression, not society as a whole. Like, I can say, “The American President is a disaster for the country, all his ideas a trash, he smells funny and should be voted out as soon as possible” and I don’t have to fear the the Amer…

I'm saying intolerance in broader society is an incredible weakness that encourages and gives power to intolerance in the state.

People are begging for authoritarian solutions to what they view as moral problems in society. If they can't convince people to do "what's right" they want the state to do it by force. It then becomes easy for authoritarians to take power because it's literally what the people are asking for, and then when they are in power it is easy to shape public opinion to be whatever they want.

>This is very different to saying something politically controversial and losing my job because a company doesn’t want to go against public opinion.

It really isn't. Corporations are taking the place of the state. If you say something controversial and can't get a job as a result and end up in a dire living situation, does it really matter if it was a few corporations or a dictator that made you unemployable?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#164

Post by polski-g »

bondarchuk wrote: post #126
faxmeyourcode wrote: post #94

Seeing the UK score an 82 on the freedom scale, whatever that means, next to the United States' score of 84, is enough to discredit whatever wacky measure they've created for "freedom" in this article. https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/02/social_media_arrests_...

You think it's too high or too low?

Too high...

You can be put in a cage, for words, in the UK.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#165

Post by jesushax »

salt-thrower wrote: post #117
hunglee2 wrote: post #35

the article is an example of orientalism, presenting the case as if there is no urgency on the matter in the Western world. Cancel culture, de-platforming, algorithmic dampening, account mislabelling, brigading on-platform, account suspension and deletion - all of these things are happening in the Western world, on US platforms. I used to have sympathy with the the argument that 'private company's can do what they li…

Freedom of speech is literally just “the government can’t throw you in jail for expressing an opinion.” It’s always been only that. Media companies (TV, newspapers, radio, now social media) have always “deplatformed” people who they disagree with or consider dangerous. There is nothing new in any of your examples. If you agree with the views of deplatformed influencers, you can start your own blog about it. That’s fr…

That is the lowest possible bar for free speech, which as a philosophical principle goes way further. Here's a good talk from Hitchens on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY

I'm not a free speech person, but since I think you're unwittingly falling for a strawman I think I can help.

Contrapoints also made a really good response (against) hitchens you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMIDAUdQ56E

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#166

Post by thfuran »

azekai wrote: post #134
witherk wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? I have seen multiple stories of the police showing up to people's house and fining them for tweets in the UK? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-60260292 Also it is my understanding that it is much easier to sue someone for libel in the UK. I would think that the UK score should actually be lower.

The US also has a higher bar for what constitutes slander/libel than the UK, which can also have a chilling effect on speech.

How would a higher bar for defamation have a chilling effect on speech?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#167

Post by immigrantheart »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8
colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

Everything is just power struggle.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#168

Post by jesushax »

debacle wrote: post #91
mikkergp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those examples are explicitly violent. Although vigorous we are still having that debate. You're not entirely wrong, but heads of state start assassinating journalists is a different spectra.

It took 40 years for growing antisemitism in Europe to lead to the Holocaust.

And only 40 minutes for this thread to become about Hitler.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#169

Post by thfuran »

greenthrow wrote: post #159

This is not talking about bogus "my freedoms" claims of people being kicked off Twitter, it's talking about actual loss of freedom of expression, where the government imprisons people for saying the wrong things. In the US we have loss sight of what real freedom of expression means.

Getting kicked off social media is essentially having your ability to engage in public discourse removed, or at least severely restricted.
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