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Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

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Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#131

Post by hotpotamus »

commandlinefan wrote: post #119
hotpotamus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see these complaints (generally from the right wing), and I think... so what? No one ever seems to have any action tied to resolve their complaints, presumably because it would ironically require creating laws that restrict speech - what is cancel culture other than a reflection of free speech in its own right after all? Of course, if you start talking about boycotting Israel, they'll be happy to send the law after…

> require creating laws that restrict speech Actually, you don't have to - you just have to create laws that protect entities that support it. Explicitly indemnifying online discussion portals from being held responsible for any (alleged) harm caused by discussions on their platform would go a LONG way toward supporting organizations that actually believe in free expression. Twitter can go on banning everybody who op…

I don't understand what you're saying - has Parler been legally shutdown for banning anti-communists?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#132

Post by kitsunesoba »

wikitopian wrote: post #102
kitsunesoba wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess what I’m getting at is that if we’re to eliminate all traces of censorship, other actions must be taken in parallel to not allow the negative effects of doing that spiral out of control. A starting point might be to restore Fairness Doctrine and other policies that help prevent traditional media from becoming hyper-polarized Nielsen-rating-chasing entertainment rather than legitimate news sources, as well as…

But what if you're incorrect? What if bots and bad actors aren't really the driving force behind the existential divorce? What if Americans are going in different directions by their own volition? What if using the state to ensure your side wins is unwise and harmful?

It’s not about sides, it’s about people getting caught up in echo chambers and refusing to have dialogue with each other as a result. People all over the political spectrum fall victim to this.

It’s been proven repeatedly that social media is crawling with bots and agents with vested interests and are largely responsible for stoking the division we’ve been seeing. Traditional media is the other fork of this, which thrives when there’s an “us vs. them” narrative with heroes and villains and has been unashamedly leaning into that strategy further with each passing year.

Some of the division is organic and has always been there — something I’m all too aware of with family spanning the political spectrum — but social and traditional media have multiplied the effect by hundreds of times.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#133

Post by asdff »

mikkergp wrote: post #78
hunglee2 wrote: post #35

the article is an example of orientalism, presenting the case as if there is no urgency on the matter in the Western world. Cancel culture, de-platforming, algorithmic dampening, account mislabelling, brigading on-platform, account suspension and deletion - all of these things are happening in the Western world, on US platforms. I used to have sympathy with the the argument that 'private company's can do what they li…

None of those examples are explicitly violent. Although vigorous we are still having that debate. You're not entirely wrong, but heads of state start assassinating journalists is a different spectra.

Just wait a few decades from now for the dust to settle, then we will read stories like this one but from our era about our leadership:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#134

Post by azekai »

witherk wrote: post #130
faxmeyourcode wrote: post #94

Seeing the UK score an 82 on the freedom scale, whatever that means, next to the United States' score of 84, is enough to discredit whatever wacky measure they've created for "freedom" in this article. https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/02/social_media_arrests_...

Wait what? I have seen multiple stories of the police showing up to people's house and fining them for tweets in the UK? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-60260292 Also it is my understanding that it is much easier to sue someone for libel in the UK. I would think that the UK score should actually be lower.

The US also has a higher bar for what constitutes slander/libel than the UK, which can also have a chilling effect on speech.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#135

Post by vkou »

nostromo wrote: post #97
dleslie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popper also sets the limit fairly clearly in his description of the paradox, and it's: > But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer argu…

Popper is literally talking about Soviets and Nazis marching into your country and killing dissidents. It's ridiculous to extend his thinking to our modern and relatively mild transgressions.

I don't think Popper was so daft as to believe that only Soviets and Nazis are capable of the kind of intolerance that should not be tolerated. I'd daresay that democracies happily carrying out repressions, summary executions, lynchings, concentration camps, institutionalized slavery, etc, etc would meet that bar as well.

You don't need to drape a swastika around you to be a fascist, you can get by just as well with any other flag.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#136

Post by MrsPeaches »

colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

Can I just clarify, are you talking about when states do this or when society does this ?

The article is (from my reading) quite clearly talking about states that are closing down freedom of expression, not society as a whole.

Like, I can say, “The American President is a disaster for the country, all his ideas a trash, he smells funny and should be voted out as soon as possible” and I don’t have to fear the the American Government is coming to get me. In places with reducing freedom of expression this is becoming more dangerous.

This is very different to saying something politically controversial and losing my job because a company doesn’t want to go against public opinion.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#137

Post by asdff »

debacle wrote: post #79

Backsliding on free expression on Hacker News needs to end. The amount of political posts that just turn into light gray on light gray are awful. I don't like much of the political content, but it seems there are many with a clear agenda on HN.

One should assume that this platform is as brigaded by vested interests as any other platform on the internet

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#139

Post by mikkergp »

asdff wrote: post #133
mikkergp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those examples are explicitly violent. Although vigorous we are still having that debate. You're not entirely wrong, but heads of state start assassinating journalists is a different spectra.

Just wait a few decades from now for the dust to settle, then we will read stories like this one but from our era about our leadership: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson

If you know of anything like this, then go write an article and I'll read it.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#140

Post by john_glick »

devindotcom wrote: post #125
throwAwaxxx666 wrote: post #109

I was banned from LinkedIn for 4 months for saying “Chinese virus” in the context of a post about a UK Telegraph article reporting on evidence on the origin of the virus. I did not mean to say anything more than if I was to say the Spanish Flu or German Measles or Middle Eastern Respiratory Disease. Somehow it’s been a bad thing to use the same naming pattern in case of Covid (based on where it originated) I have bac…

This article is about people being jailed or killed for criticising their government

It's a slippery slope, though. You start by banning certain phrases, then certain thoughts, then certain people (lock them up)
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