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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#921

Post by ItsTooMuch »

wildmanx wrote: post #911
ItsTooMuch wrote: post #870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stationed troops and machines were not nearly enough to handle the situation, see my sibling comments. You can't suppress protests of several millions with 300k not-so-willing troops and 5000 not-so-good tanks (the Czechoslovaks manufactured their own tanks because of how bad the Soviet manufacturing was). For one thing, the problem is your tanks and troops have to be ready all around the country - the protesting…

> The stationed troops and machines were not nearly enough to handle the situation, see my sibling comments. You can't suppress protests of several millions with 300k not-so-willing troops and 5000 not-so-good tanks I don't know how old you are or where you were at the time. I was there. In the GDR, in East Berlin. On the streets. And I can tell you, a few tanks and troops getting their guns out would have made major…

Well, OK - I accept your opinion about GDR. But there are still the other states, and Gorbachev somehow forgot to save these too. I don't understand what makes him so good in light of the events in these other places. Isn't it interesting that only Germans are protective of him? You never hear such opinion in former Czechoslovakia. I never heard someone from Poland or Hungary talk about Gorbachev positively - neutral at best, and very unusually.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#922

Post by dh2022 »

dontlaugh wrote: post #873
koheripbal wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be a popular notion in privileged white western high schools, but the transformation in eastern EU countries has been breathtaking. The poverty divide between east and west Germany was so visibly apparent when you walked across that line. Today, both sides of Berlin are vibrant and thriving. The same can be said in every capital city that has joined the EU. Massive prosperity compared to the Soviet poverty…

The West's outwards aggression and effective embargo are gone, sure. That definitely helps. However, the material conditions aren't necessarily better. It used to be that everyone was guaranteed a home, a job, healthcare, education, etc. Homelessness is now a problem in most capitals, many struggle to find a job at all, healthcare has generally been defunded and privatised, etc. So many of us left because we clearly…

I would like to amplify KingOfCoders answers with the experience in Romania. I lived in 1980's Romania. The party provided a guaranteed job - but only if you worked where the party sent you. The party provided a guaranteed apartment - but only if you lived where the party sent you. The apartment did not have heat and did not have electricity. If you were lucky maybe it had a somewhat stable gas supply. Hopefully the gas stoves you rigged to heat your apartment would not blow up (this happened). The guaranteed job did not feed you because of the food shortages. The party provided free health care - but there were no medicine. The hospitals did not have heat and when my sister went for apendicitis surgery my parents were on pins and needles just so the hospital does not get hit by an electricity blackout. I could go on and on but if you still think it was better under communism then nothing I say will change your mind.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#923

Post by _8j50 »

0dayz wrote: post #734
_8j50 wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a very human mistake to prioritize politics (people) over essential root-causes (money). I am convinced that for most people, their development years (pre-adolescent) shape them, and for Mikhail, the experiences of his father and maternal grandfather as he witnessed as a child shaped him. He saw a cruel world made by people and tried to fix it, but for humans, the root cause is always superseded by basic nee…

In general I agree, but the key point is that that is only true until either those basic needs are meet or the promise was shown to be a lie.

Look at China, so long as the economy is good the people mostly don't care about communism/politics.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#924

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

coffee_beqn wrote: post #572
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just went with the wikipedia article which has two sources, both just newspaper articles, so who knows. It's not implausible though. There've been a handful of concerts as large as 3 million apparently. That just boggles my mind. Can you imagine standing on a stage like that?

Can you imagine having to go to the bathroom in the middle of that horde

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was just a mess.

See also the reason you should never go to that stupid times square new years party.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#925

Post by dh2022 »

dontlaugh wrote: post #847
vandreas2 wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you could always go the Romania way, starve the population until debt is zero. The profit extractors were the government but at least it was "our" thieves not some foreign companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_debt_of_the_Socialist_...

It's also important to remember why that debt was paid. Our government had taken IMF loans with the goal of expanding industry to sell products to the West. We did, then we were prevented from selling finished products to many countries. Some of the production was redirected internally and towards trade with other socialist countries, but the loan denominated in dollars remained. Then the IMF demanded we pay back the…

Well I lived in Romania in the 1980s so I feel compelled to respond to this.

Romanian leadership took a lot of loans from the West and spend the money on large industrial projects with Western technology which was either obsolete or becoming obsolete (Dacia-Renault, Olcit-Cytroen, CANDU for the nuclear energy, Rombac-British Aircracft, etc...)

This was a huge bet that did not work - but it was all done by Romanian Leadership. The West did not ask Romania to borrow, Romania asked to borrow. When the bills came due at the end of 1970s Romania asked to roll over their debt. Unfortunately for Romania at the same time US FED (Volcker) was raising the interest rates sharply to combat inflation. So rolling over the debt was very expensive. This was not economic sanctions aimed at Romania - this happened to every borrower that had USD debts (including regular people in the US).

Romania choose to pay the debts and the only way to get USD was to sell resources - because the industrial products were obsolete and nobody in the West wanted to buy. So Romania sold food and whatever oil they still had and whatever steel they still had. For the Romanian people that meant food shortages, heat shortages, electricity shortages...

This was done by Romanian leadership. It was not economic sanctions from the West.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#926

Post by thriftwy »

flavius29663 wrote: post #303
thriftwy wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1955, eastern europeans were so thankful to be free from Germany. In 1995, eastern europeans were so thankful to be free from Russia. In 2035, you can expect eastern europeans to be thankful again. Not sure who'd it be this time.

> In 1955, eastern europeans were so thankful to be free from Germany. Not sure which Eastern Europeans you mean, but I can assure you most of those 150 mil people were not happy they got conquered by nazis or commies, it was the same amount of genocide and societal damage from both sides.

The problem is that these eastern europeans are shaped by Germany and Russia.

Half of them are former german fiefdoms and other half are territories reclaimed by Russia from ottoman muslim rule.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#927

Post by CRConrad »

ztrww wrote: post #776
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant. Literally any country in the world would suppress independence declarations with violence, regardless of good justifications or not. That's just how nations work and has nothing to do with USSR specifically.

Well Britain allowed Scotland to have a vote, Czechoslovakia is another example, even back in 1905 Sweden allowed Norway to declare independence without a violent response. There are many other examples. So you’re wrong...

> even back in 1905 Sweden allowed Norway to declare independence without a violent response.

Norway was always independentof Sweden; it was never subordinate, only part of a "personal union", i.e. had the same king. Apart from that, it was an independent nation.

> So you’re wrong...

Not as wrong as you.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#928

Post by mvc »

Ygg2 wrote: post #836
mvc wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us This is so wrong. Where do you think all the disinformation comes from? The rise of far-right parties across Europe. The attacks on democracy. Putin has been waging war against us (albeit a new kind of war) for many years. It is time to fight back if we value democracy at all.

Damn that Putin is both very weak (his Country has GDP of Texas while having way more people), and absolute mastermind organizing far right as some kind of pauper Lex Luthor, on a shoestring budget. Disclaimer: Western troubles are features of capitalism, they provide the fuel, even if Putin is the one to throw the cigarette butt.

Check my comment history here. You'll see I'm no particular fan of capitalism.

And of course the far-right existed before Putin.

But he is the head of a mafia organization that controls the world's largest supply of natural gas. So I think funding a few right-wing grifters/useful idiots like Steve Bannon and Nigel Farage is within their capabilities.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#929

Post by mvc »

nivenkos wrote: post #756
simonh wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Wow, just wow. And how exactly were they supposed to do that? The unity government was declared on 24th February and was formally convened on 27th February 2014. How long did Russia wait to see if the new government would accept regional referendums? Well, Russian forces seized control of key strategic s…

Yeah, Russia is aggressive and opportunistic. Peacekeepers should be sent to carry that out (e.g. from the UN directly). But dragging out open war like this is just terrible for everyone.

> Peacekeepers should be sent to carry that out (e.g. from the UN directly).

And how would that happen when Russia can just veto the UN action?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#930

Post by sbaiddn »

krzyk wrote: post #871
sbaiddn wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is voluntary? Please! Gladio, P2 in Europe, the Greek civil war and coups in Turkey beg to differ. The post war equilibrium was decided in Yalta explicitly defining how Europe would be split with zero input from continental Europeans.

> was decided in Yalta explicitly Yeah, but some EE countries managed to regain their freedom.

Yes, Yugo and Albania broke from the Soviet sphere early in the 1950s.

Look Im not saying Albania was a swell place to be in 1950. It sucked. Commies are terrible terrible people. But the relations in the Eastern block were far more nuanced than the caricature we're spoon fed.

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