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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#871

Post by krzyk »

sbaiddn wrote: post #532
nradov wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't attempt to defend NATO interventions in other countries, but disbanding it like the Warsaw Pact was never a real option so long as Russia continued to maintain a significant military capability including nuclear weapons. The Warsaw Pact was never a real thing to begin with. It was a total fiction, not a voluntary alliance of (somewhat) equal sovereign states like NATO. All of the other Warsaw Pact members wer…

NATO is voluntary? Please! Gladio, P2 in Europe, the Greek civil war and coups in Turkey beg to differ. The post war equilibrium was decided in Yalta explicitly defining how Europe would be split with zero input from continental Europeans.

> was decided in Yalta explicitly

Yeah, but some EE countries managed to regain their freedom.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#872

Post by CRConrad »

danbruc wrote: post #853
throwaway894345 wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think opposing someone else’s war is much of a credit to him, or evidence against the idea that he is motivated to Make Russia Great Again. It seems more like he wants International Law to bind others but not himself.

He was not completely opposing it, he just demanded to follow the law - you make your case in front of the UN and get it sanctioned. And in this case you should get credit for opposing it as it was all made up bullshit. Making Russia great again is also perfectly fine if it means to rebuild the economy, improve living standards, and similar things. Making it greater again, i.e. extending the territory with force is o…

> He was not completely opposing it, he just demanded to follow the law - you make your case in front of the UN and get it sanctioned.

Which, given how he didn't do that before invading Ukraine, was just him spewing bullshit. Why are you repeating his bullshit as if it somehow excuses his actions?

> Making Russia great again is also perfectly fine if it means to rebuild the economy, improve living standards, and similar things.

Did you really miss the initial capitals in MAG-- eh, MARA? It has about as much to do with rebuilding the economy, improving living standards, and similar things as MAGA had to do with rebuilding the economy and improving living standards in America.

> I only know that Putin often said ...

If even you realise that all you know is his own spin, then what makes you think you have anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#873

Post by dontlaugh »

koheripbal wrote: post #843
dontlaugh wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such freedom, to get pillaged by western companies. We are now in massive debt, most public services are privatised and collapsing, the young can't afford rents, wages are constantly dropping relative to expenses. It was the profit extractors that won the cold war.

This might be a popular notion in privileged white western high schools, but the transformation in eastern EU countries has been breathtaking. The poverty divide between east and west Germany was so visibly apparent when you walked across that line. Today, both sides of Berlin are vibrant and thriving. The same can be said in every capital city that has joined the EU. Massive prosperity compared to the Soviet poverty…

The West's outwards aggression and effective embargo are gone, sure. That definitely helps.

However, the material conditions aren't necessarily better. It used to be that everyone was guaranteed a home, a job, healthcare, education, etc. Homelessness is now a problem in most capitals, many struggle to find a job at all, healthcare has generally been defunded and privatised, etc.

So many of us left because we clearly had no opportunities in our own countries after 89, especially after so much industry was sold off for scrap.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#874

Post by CRConrad »

nivenkos wrote: post #731
poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

> I'm not pro-Russian.

For someone who is not pro-Russian, you're performing a remarkably good impression of someone who is pro-Russian, mr "Coup".

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#875

Post by jorblumesea »

lapcat wrote: post #406
jorblumesea wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you study geopolitics and history, you might come to the conclusion that Russia was never going to be a democratic ally of the West regardless of how much economic aid they were given. Russia at the end of the cold war had geopolitical imperatives such as a warm water ports, buffer states and desire for Russian hegemony that would have existed regardless of their economic state. They also have a long, long history…

> If you study geopolitics and history Please don't make assumptions about what other people have or haven't studied. > They also have a long, long history of authoritarianism. You could say the same about the Axis powers in WW2.

I think it's pretty clear that many people here lack historical and geo political context.

"Can you believe Russia would invade to get a warm water port?!"

Yes, I would.

Btw your analogy of "why isn't germany authoritarian" is off the mark, because the Russians and NATO completely dismantled the existing power structures post ww2 through force. We did not do anything close to that post cold war. In fact the communist party still exists today in Russia.

Another point is that the US made it clear it would not tolerate an openly authoritarian government in Western Europe but would tolerate far right groups for its own purposes against communism.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#876

Post by CRConrad »

nivenkos wrote: post #728
notahacker wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? The internationally managed referendums Russia has never asked for and would never permit? Arguments that "real issue" with Russia repeatedly invading its smaller neighbours is that one of the neighbours won't grant something n…

I'm not pro-Russia either, I just don't understand why we're completely destroying our economies for a conflict that has nothing to do with us (post-USSR border division and nationalism).

> I'm not pro-Russia either

Yes you are. If you really think you aren't, you are deluded.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#878

Post by giantrobot »

rossmohax wrote: post #321
giantrobot wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why getting rid of communism had to include letting Americans to take reign in many government agencies of Russia? Wow. Such a claim. I'm sure you have mountains of examples of this happening just one time.

Harvard Boys: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russ...

How is that the US "running" Russian government agencies?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#879

Post by pydry »

simonh wrote: post #867
pydry wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zelensky asked the few thousand fascists/nazis to lay down their arms for a cease fire - in order to fulfil his primary campaign promise of ending the donbass war. They refused and called him a traitor. Being Jewish they probably called him a few other names too. He tacitly accepted this insubordination without a fuss, as far as I can see. These days he lavishes Azov with praise. In which other countries does this ha…

Russia has had problems with insubordination too, with soldiers refusing to fight. Frankly I don't see how it makes any difference. None of that makes Ukraine a fascist state. Nor does it change the fact that when it suits it's own interests, Russia promotes and funds fascists. Clearly none of this has anything to do with fascism, Russia didn't send massive columns of armoured vehicles and thousands of troops at Kyiv…

Im not sure you could argue that Ukraine is overall a fascist state. Zelensky isnt secretly one of them and lord knows they werent good at winning elections when they ran either.

However, with a lot of fascists rewarded with government posts after their performance in maidan and an entire fascist batallion somehow having the independence to defy a presidential order to stand down in a war, it's pretty clear that fascists hold a significant level of power in Ukraine.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#880

Post by krzyk »

photochemsyn wrote: post #645
nradov wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just saying what exactly? If you have a point to make then state it directly instead of wasting our time with useless innuendo.

Well, that's why disbanding NATO and giving military control of Europe to a German-centric organization was viewed with, well, uncertainty about what they might get up to. Given the persistence of the Nazi mentality in that region, one might also point out. It's not like the Japanese were the only ones with their holy shrines in the mountains to fallen heroes, was it?

I think in "that region" WWII mentality is less persistent than in Russia, where they praise a guy (and country) who (which) killed more people.
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