Mikhail Gorbachev has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#751

Post by nivenkos » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:19 AM UTC

maltris wrote: post #717

nivenkos wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

How do you see a referendum working out fairly when the population that sees itself as ukrainian has been forced out and forced to flee and only the russian locals will be able to vote? "Referendum" haha

This is a real problem - like how does this end?

Even if Ukraine "wins"? Then what?

What happens to the Russians in the Crimea? Do they just let Right Sector and the Azov Battalion carry out their persecution, and move Ukrainians in just like the RSFSR did to the Tatars?

Likewise how do they control the DPR and LPR? They previously elected Yanukovych, the problem isn't just going to disappear.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#752

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:20 AM UTC

rkagerer wrote: post #373

eloy wrote: post #20

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Apple Computer: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisem... - In 1998 for Pizza Hut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial - In 2000 for the ÖBB, the Austrian railways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c - In 2007…

Anyone have a link to a picture of the Apple ad?

[deleted]

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#753

Post by nivenkos » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:21 AM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #733

nivenkos wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

> But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Very weird to say those things - Inflation isn't just caused by the invasion. - Inflation is at ~9%, not enough for 25% purchasing power loss. - The conflict has a lot of things to do with Europe. Since when is Ukraine not…

The Euro has also crashed 20% in a year though.

That's a massive loss in purchasing power considering most things are sold in USD (including oil).

We didn't intervene in Armenia or Georgia, there's not much difference here.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#754

Post by krapp » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:22 AM UTC

least wrote: post #747

gizmo385 wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the War of Northern Aggression That’s some choice phrasing there. Mind explaining this framing? Pretty sure the only people I’ve seen use this phrasing were people who thought the confederacy and slavery were good things

The term "Civil War" affirms the United States' (i.e. Northern) viewpoint that the secessions of the southern states were illegitimate and the conflict that ensued was between citizens of the same country. If you think that the secession of southern states was a legitimate act and the formation of the CSA was legitimate, you can't call it a civil war. It's a war between two sovereign states, of which the United State…

> though then a deeper question might be, when is secession legitimate?

It's an entirely subjective question. Never, according to the state being seceded from or revolted against, and always, according to the secessionists and revolutionaries.

It's worth mentioning that the same American government that added the Second Amendment and spoke in florid prose about the blood-sacrifice of patriots and rebellion against governments also put down rebellions against itself.

>And is there any justification that the United States might simply accept secession of a state from the Union?

No. Cultural reasons aside, there is simply too much money and infrastructure at stake (to say nothing of political instability threatening its superpower status) for the US to be willing to lose even a single state.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#755

Post by nivenkos » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:22 AM UTC

rkuska wrote: post #742

nivenkos wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US actively supported Yeltsin and paved the way for Putin. This is what they wanted. And it's working wonders now - the US will make a fortune off of LNG and arms sales, whilst completely destroying competing European industry which suffers gas shortages and uncompetitive energy prices. It's a masterful long-term play.

This is how every conspiracy starts I think. Others believing that people in power have these plans laid out several decades in advance. Where in reality their plans (in democratic world) only spans several years (their active mandate). Nobody can foresee the future. US supported Yeltsin because that was something that made sense in a given time for them. They didn't do this because they expected to make ton of money…

I more meant that they didn't want to help, because they want an enemy, not an ally.

Someone to point to and keep the military and intelligence agency funding flooding in.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#756

Post by nivenkos » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:24 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #750

nivenkos wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

>The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Wow, just wow. And how exactly were they supposed to do that? The unity government was declared on 24th February and was formally convened on 27th February 2014. How long did Russia wait to see if the new government would accept regional referendums? Well, Russian forces seized control of key strategic s…

Yeah, Russia is aggressive and opportunistic.

Peacekeepers should be sent to carry that out (e.g. from the UN directly).

But dragging out open war like this is just terrible for everyone.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#757

Post by simonh » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:30 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #689

rixrax wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the dissolution of soviet union is not over yet. You can see this nowhere as clearly as in russias attack on Ukraine[0] where imperialistic russians that dream of restoring the glory and borders of soviet union[1] are waging their genocidal war. Meanwhile they are using hunger[2] and energy as their weapons against the rest of the world[3]. If the russians are not stopped in Ukraine, then there is no reason to be…

Quoted post unavailable.

>And Ukraine is a complicated conflict, Crimea was granted to Ukraine by the Soviet Union which modern Russia considers to be an illegitimate act,...

If they considered it illegitimate, why did they sign a treaty guaranteeing Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity?

The answer is because at the time Ukraine was controlled by Russian stooges, and as long as Russia had control of Ukrainian politics it was all fine. What they couldn't stand is the idea of a genuinely free democratic Ukraine sat right next to an oppressive and kleptocratic Russia. The Russian regime sees all of Ukraine as their back yard, every last square inch of it. They have even said so many, many times. Putin wrote an essay about how Ukrainian sovereignty is "only possible in partnership with Russia", and if you think he means anything like an equal partnership I can't help you. Crimea and the Donbas are excuses, they're a foot in the door to Ukraine as a whole.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#758

Post by hilbert42 » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:32 AM UTC

wawjgreen wrote: post #497

good riddance. he was an uneducated idiot, who is indirectly responsible for the millions that were killed in Afghanistan, in 1992. In 1989, when he pulled the red army out of Afghanistan--he also cut all aid to the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. the then-president of DRA went to Moscow to persuade Garbageoff to not to do so, predicting that the terrorist zealots would overrun his government leading to chaos in…

"he was an uneducated idiot,"

The above statement is not true based on any number of authoritative accounts.

By saying that you have undermined any value your comment otherwise may have had.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#759

Post by rags2riches » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:35 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #731

poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

Millions of Europeans in nations bordering Russia disagrees. This conflict is all about us. We'll take the economic troubles and the cold winters as they come. We can still see clearly that we're not freezing in a bomb shelter or trench, as the Ukranians are on our behalf.

Take your neutrality and what-abouts and stuff them.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#760

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 10:36 AM UTC

ironcurtain wrote: post #658

jakuboboza wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ? What about sending tanks against Lithuanians and you know...killing people. How good is this ? 700+ injured and 14 dead doesnt sound like something "genuinely good person" does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

Quoted post unavailable.

[deleted]