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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#501

Post by zx8080 »

tylersmith wrote: post #374
patentatt wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard variations of this story a lot. Common people and workers received a share of the company they work for, but times were so dire most people sold them to those with money for a pittance. So foreseeable, why was it allowed to happen?

Some people chose to put their assets to work for later and others to sell their assets for cash right now. Why shouldn't people be allowed to make those decisions?

Shock therapy transition to capitalism plan meant people did not do the first choice. There were no choice, literally. Workers got shares in the companies they worked for without any alternative (get your share or continue receiving your salary).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#502

Post by lapcat »

kemiller wrote: post #462
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Not sure how a Marshall plan would have worked since, unlike Germany, we were not occupiers. Our ability to reshape their system was limited. Not that we didn’t bubble things.

"Somewhat more aid per capita was also directed toward the Allied nations, with less for those that had been part of the Axis or remained neutral. The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total). The next highest contributions went to France" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#503

Post by guelo »

ghostwriter wrote: post #353
andrekandre wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think you are being a bit pedantic, it says: While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. notice the wording "more accurately" and not "mischaracterized" etc -- btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a democracy? are you trying to say that people shouldn't be able to decide their leaders?

it's the US embassy being very pedantic about the matter to the extent they find it important to dedicate the starting paragraph of the entire section about the US government, even though the difference is just about being more accurate. in fact, accuracy in founding principles of governing is as important as accuracy of long-distance ballistic motion planning. > btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a demo…

My guess is some MAGA types in the Argentinan embassy.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#504

Post by spaetzleesser »

avmich wrote: post #316
spaetzleesser wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "Marshall Plan" for Russia would have worked as well as the "Marshall Plan" for Afghanistan has worked over the last 20 years. You can't impose your system on people who don't want it. Do you think Russia would have handed control over to Westerners? And without control it's just an endless money sink. The oligarchs would just have become a little richer.

Just to be certain, I'm sure the last 20 years put a long-lasting effect on Afghan people, won't be erased soon. We even see some effects in modern Iraq, where the period was shorter.

That effect is still in question. And the price tag was enormous.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#505

Post by selimthegrim »

bolton_strid wrote: post #375
spamizbad wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s crazy is the minds behind the Washington Consensus favored a form of extreme capitalism that no western democracy would ever tolerate such a system on their own soil. Some ultra-capitalist die-hards have even retreated away from Liberalism in general as they found it too restrictive for their extreme ideology (they know their economic regime could never gain sustained popular support; it would need to be impos…

What’s crazy is the minds behind the Washington Consensus favored a form of extreme capitalism that no western democracy would ever tolerate such a system on their own soil. It had been tried in many places already: Chile, Indonesia, the Philippines, and (before 1979) Iran. The data were clear: it had worked very well for capitalists, but very poorly for people in the countries affected. And it mostly has come to the…

Khomeini was actually pretty anti-union IIRC

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#507

Post by _8j50 »

mortenjorck wrote: post #249
eloy wrote: post #20

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Apple Computer: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisem... - In 1998 for Pizza Hut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial - In 2000 for the ÖBB, the Austrian railways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c - In 2007…

Personally, I try to avoid characterizing anyone in politics as a "genuinely good person" or otherwise. I don't think it's a useful framing. As humans, we gravitate toward personalities, identities, and stories, and these all matter for the people we keep close to us. In the public sphere, however, actions and legacy are what matter, for better or worse. For a major historical figure like Gorbachev, there is bound to…

I think sincerity is a better measure. As leaders go, he is one of the lasts of his kind.

He was 14 when the war ended. “Our generation is the generation of wartime children,” he said. “It has burned us, leaving its mark both on our characters and on our view of the world.” -- Quote from the WAPO article on this.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#508

Post by fy20 »

cube2222 wrote: post #426
marcinzm wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in Poland in the late 90s and there were fairly large economic issues with a lack of job projects for many people. This in turn resulted in fairly high rates of crime as it was one of the more guaranteed ways to make a living if you were young. Many other people left the country to make money which in the long turn led to some of the Brexit issues. I literally didn't meet a single person, including myself, who…

It's probably worth adding that this is no longer the case. Live in Poland, muggings aren't really a thing, and according to the "what worries the world" monthly polls of ipsos[0], poles are the nation that least worries about violence and crime (it was surprising for me to see the effect is that strong), with only 5% worrying about it. [0]: https://www.ipsos.com/en/what-worries-world-july-2022

I live in Lithuania and I guess it was the same here, as all apartments have thick steel doors with multiple locks, and ground floor apartments of older buildings often have bars.

Now though it's nothing like that. I'm originally from the UK and I feel much safer being here. Not only personal safety (I don't feel there's any 'bad parts' of the city you 'shouldn't go') but also private belongings. I've never heard of anyone in recent times being burgled or having their car broken into.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#509

Post by andrekandre »

ghostwriter wrote: post #353
andrekandre wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think you are being a bit pedantic, it says: While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. notice the wording "more accurately" and not "mischaracterized" etc -- btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a democracy? are you trying to say that people shouldn't be able to decide their leaders?

it's the US embassy being very pedantic about the matter to the extent they find it important to dedicate the starting paragraph of the entire section about the US government, even though the difference is just about being more accurate. in fact, accuracy in founding principles of governing is as important as accuracy of long-distance ballistic motion planning. > btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a demo…

  > because a typical follow-up discussion usually starts with "so where's the popular vote?" and this diminishes the principle of fair representation of smaller states of the federal republic.
thanks for clarifying.

just to be upfront, im not sure i agree, but in any case i think stating that upfront is better than debating words "democracy" vs "republic", people will miss the point (or not get what your trying to say)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#510

Post by jlbbellefeuille »

nsajko wrote: post #475
insane_dreamer wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeltsin is very much to blame. Russia would have transitioned much better if Gorbachev had been the head of the post-USSR Russia instead of Yeltsin. That said, the former Soviet Republics that transitioned well are those that were smaller, already edging their way towards a market economy before the USSR collapse, and received substantial help from (and eventually joined) the EU (Baltics, Hungary, Poland, Czech Rep.,…

Correction: Poland and Czechoslovakia weren't Soviet Republics, and Slovenia (Yugoslavia) wasn't even in the USSR sphere of influence.

USSR Sphere of Influence > Yugoslavia > Slovenia (It wasn’t exclusively in the USSR sphere of influence, but it was in their sphere of influence.)

That’s how the USA imported the Yugo!

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