Mikhail Gorbachev has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#281

Post by ghostwriter » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:38 PM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #274

ghostwriter wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly everyone, but left zoomers who are unable to understand the key founding papers and who refuse descriptive comments of the founders on the matter most certainly do. [1]: "While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitutio…

> Hardly everyone, but left zoomers I am not a zoomer and I agree with the commenter you are replying to. Most of the "west" has a form of government that is a representative democracy (most of them as republics, but quite a few as constitutional monarchies as well), including the US. Most people would not waste their time nitpicking the usage of such a widely accepted term. https://web.archive.org/web/20200215230538…

> Most people would not waste their time nitpicking the usage of such a widely accepted term.

For some reason the US embassy still finds it important enough to broadcast the difference to the rest of the world: https://ar.usembassy.gov/education-culture/irc/u-s-governmen... Could you explain that?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#282

Post by AndyMcConachie » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:39 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

The USA put Yeltsin into power with a coup. Then Yeltsin turned over the reins to Putin. To say that the USA "didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s" is incredibly ignorant. The USA had no interest in promoting democracy in 90's post-USSR.

Gorbachev was a fool who believed that the USA and the west would not rape his country. We'll never know how many former citizens of the USSR died because of 90's shock therapy.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#283

Post by MichaelCollins » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:40 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #262

karaterobot wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if I'm not, I'm skeptical. Marshall plan notwithstanding, I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. L…

> I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. I suggest you read more about the post war occupation of Japan. The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale forcing Japan to accept democratization throughout. Unusual for the U.S. this included pushing economic democracy by suppor…

> The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale

More than a thumb. The Constitution of Japan was written by Americans. America stomped on the scale, and that time it seems to have worked.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#284

Post by avmich » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:40 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #220

karaterobot wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if I'm not, I'm skeptical. Marshall plan notwithstanding, I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. L…

> Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. There's a lot of evidence that US kleptocrats collaborated to help turn Russia into a kleptocracy. Practically encouraged rather than discouraged that outcome.

I'm sceptical that turning Russia into a kleptocracy was a plan. Usually participants just want to quickly enrich themselves. So I can agree that "let's make it good" plan didn't work well enough, but for planned degradation I'd like to see more arguments.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#285

Post by baybal2 » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:41 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Russian citizen here, and one with self-honesty to talk about 199X without self-pity, unlike many of my compatriots here.

> The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II.

Total bullshit. The West did put in nearly as much money as part of GDP in aid to early 199X Russia. US aid was pouring from every hole up until mid-late nineties.

I would argue America went too much Marshal on Russia, and you are reaping the results of this folly now. It was a giant mistake not to finish off the beastie, and not to SCALE UP the pressure after the USSR collapse.

The West is responsible for much of the CPSU comeback happening in 200X, just like USA rescued early CPSU from total collapse through food riots in early 192X out of pity. A giant mistake.

US humanitarian aid was stolen many times over, sold again, stolen, and resold, giving a headstart to CPSU elements turning to banditry. It was totally unsupervised.

Subsequent entries by Western multinationals funded much of 200X mess in Russia, rise, and legitimisation of early Putin's mob regime. The first Western supermarket in Russia was literally inaugurated by a mob boss of Moscow.

Much of Kremlin's current denizens owe their meteoric rises to megabribes they got from Western MNCs in early 200X, which catapulted then into power.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#286

Post by simonh » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:41 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #221

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

I thought most of the major assets got bought by connected oligarchs, sometimes by literally putting goons at the doors of the auction room to beat up anyone that tried to get in to bid against them. If the oils fields were actually owned by European companies, we’d be buying Russian oil from ourselves, not from Russia.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#287

Post by epolanski » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #98

He was able to get into politburo very young because he was a good administrator and he had powerful patrons. But he became the leader of the USSR just because there was nobody else. Politburo was so old that everybody ahead of him, or more power hungry than him was in hospice or otherwise not fully functioning. Then he started finally some of the common sense reforms needed. His intention was never to drop communism…

> common sense reforms

Politically and in terms of press freedom, maybe.

Economically it was a disaster that ruined an already stagnating growth and turned it into recession.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#288

Post by bhupy » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #221

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia.

https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti...

A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market economies where large corporations start off as small companies and become dominant through innovation, growth, and generally meeting consumer demands.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#289

Post by 62951413 » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

In hindsight, that's directionally correct even though it was not that obvious back then. Only freaks mentioned the nukes in the 90s for example. Now it's crystal clear that their stockpile alone should have justified much higher engagement from the first world. Possibly all the way to literally buying most of it. All kinds of things were possible in the early 90s.

We can definitely blame the US for forcing Ukraine to relinquish its nukes. We can blame the US for insisting for a long time on preserving the USSR (during the Gorbachev era). We can blame the US for not paying enough attention to the other two Slavic former republics early. We can blame America for not penalizing Yeltsin's regime when they started to veer off the original course.

But we need to remember that it was the West in general, not just the US. The EU is equally to blame. And even though the last 20 years are a direct result of the 90s not that much was done in those 20 years either. Not in 2008, not in 2014, not even when President Trump told the Germans to cut the pipelines and spend on the military.

It very well could be the case that destroying the Evil Empire was an unprecedented affair which was too hard for anybody. Where by hard I mean impossible in the Velvet Revolution style. Or at all. They had to perform multiple simultaneous transitions (Totalitarianism -> Democracy, central planning -> market economy, empire -> nation state). With a population impoverished by 70 years of Communism and three generations not knowing any other life (not the case in the Eastern Europe).

It's poetically fitting that Mr Gorbachev died the same year his entire legacy was erased. He was not perfect, he was an idealist, but he gave freedom to the people. It was him who opened the border and let millions escape.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#290

Post by spamizbad » Tue, Aug 30, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #221

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

What’s crazy is the minds behind the Washington Consensus favored a form of extreme capitalism that no western democracy would ever tolerate such a system on their own soil.

Some ultra-capitalist die-hards have even retreated away from Liberalism in general as they found it too restrictive for their extreme ideology (they know their economic regime could never gain sustained popular support; it would need to be imposed)