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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#431

Post by hypersoar »

eloy wrote: post #20

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Apple Computer: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisem... - In 1998 for Pizza Hut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial - In 2000 for the ÖBB, the Austrian railways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c - In 2007…

I saw that Pizza Hut commercial earlier today and I can't stop thinking about it. It has so much going on. It's the victory of capitalism over Soviet communism, the rise of neoliberalism to global hegemony, and the "End of History" in the form of a 30-second ad for pizza.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#432

Post by insane_dreamer »

starik36 wrote: post #411
insane_dreamer wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeltsin is very much to blame. Russia would have transitioned much better if Gorbachev had been the head of the post-USSR Russia instead of Yeltsin. That said, the former Soviet Republics that transitioned well are those that were smaller, already edging their way towards a market economy before the USSR collapse, and received substantial help from (and eventually joined) the EU (Baltics, Hungary, Poland, Czech Rep.,…

> much better if Gorbachev had been the head of the post-USSR Russia Gorbachev wanted to keep USSR intact. He didn't want a post-USSR Russia. He initiated referendums to that end. But USSR was already on the train to dissolution and nothing was going to stop it.

He wanted to keep the USSR intact but also understood that was no longer an option. I'm sure he would have accepted to be PM of Russia but he was considered part of the "communist regime" and wasn't the one standing on the tanks (lets ignore the fact that Yeltin was also part of the communist regime), so that didn't happen.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#433

Post by fomine3 »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #326
agumonkey wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't it cultural ? japanese seems to be ok struggling under american control and keep reaching higher. People say US money made Japan thrive but so many time throwing money at a large problem fails.. I think the population was just more mentally compatible. Or maybe the post soviet Russia was dealt a bad hand. Hard to know (just like here, you can find infinite streams of contradictory arguments)

Hard to say. I suspect the horrific bombing of Japanese cities probably had something to do with their willingness to submit. Leaving their Emperor intact as a figurehead probably helped a lot. Perhaps American willingness to help Japan rebuild immediately after such a bitter war also played a role. There were probably innumerable factors that went into it. But there are a lot of differences between that situation an…

Korean war is a big reason why Japanese industries revived, and the US don't want let Japan poor

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#434

Post by eternalban »

lapcat wrote: post #415
eternalban wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake This notion is based on ignoring historic facts. Germany (and Japan) in WWII were fully vanquished foes whose entire socio-political system was redrawn by the victors. Marshall plan executed in an environment of near total control over Germany. US simply was not in a position to do a Marshall Plan for ex-Sovie…

> This notion is based on ignoring historic facts. No, it's not. Please refrain from this kind of personal comment. I wasn't suggesting that the US meddle in Russia's political system. Russia was already moving to democracy by itself. The point was to provide economic aid to support that existing, fledgling, fragile democracy. What happened, unfortunately, is that many Russians suffered heavily economically during th…

> No, it's not. Please refrain from this kind of personal comment.

Pointing out (perceived) omission is a not a "personal comment".

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#435

Post by Spooky23 »

somat wrote: post #380
jollybean wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military defeated Japan and was an occupying power. The US had the power to dictate whatever terms. Japan was on it's back. Russia in 1992 was it's own entity. Still a nuclear power. Making it's own decisions. Not only would Russia not have tolerated US intervention, I'm extremely doubtful there could have been such a thing on any terms. As it stands, much of the money used by Oligarchs to buy up Natural Resou…

This is true, the question is, what was the difference between the occupation of japan and germany and the occupation of afganistan, iraq or vietnam. The lesson of the latter is that all it takes is 20 years of low level combat until the occupying country gets tired and leaves. the lesson of the former is that defeated countries can become your greatest allies. As to what leads a nation to choose one path or the othe…

The difference is that the machinery of governance existed and could be operated.

Afghanistan and Iraq are weak states dominated by sectarian violence. Vietnam is and was a strong state.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#436

Post by irrational »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #207
nradov wrote: post #135

For those unfamiliar with what happened in Lithuania, in 1991 Gorbachev used military force to kill 14 Lithuanian civilians who were demonstrating for democratic reforms. https://www.rferl.org/a/lithuania-soviet-crackdown-1991-krem...

> who were demonstrating for democratic reforms. You seem to comment to better inform readers, yet your comment distorts the truth. Even the article you linked talks about Lithuania declaring independence from the USSR, not asking for democratic reforms. Despite what your article says, if you read the story on Wikipedia, Lithuania did in fact unilaterally declare independence from the USSR in March 1990. Just as an e…

There are a number of states that would result in great rejoicing if they were to declare independence today. They suck up so many federal resources without giving much back.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#437

Post by nl »

ghostwriter wrote: post #240
ZoomerCretin wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic republic, which is what everyone means when we say democracy.

Hardly everyone, but left zoomers who are unable to understand the key founding papers and who refuse descriptive comments of the founders on the matter most certainly do. [1]: "While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitutio…

The difference between "a democracy" and "a constitutional federal republic" seems to be a distinction without meaning.

There's a certain segment who seem very adamant that this is a very important argument to win against "the left". But I've never met any "leftist" who cares particularly - most seem to shrug, concede the label and move on.

I'm pretty much in agreement. The US is a democracy in the wide sense in that it uses a democratic process to choose government. It's also true that it's a representative democracy in that the process works by people choosing representatives. So sure - constitutional federal republic.

But why does anyone think this is particularly important, and why is this seen as something that there is any left/right distinction on is beyond me.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#438

Post by jwond »

bolton_strid wrote: post #375
spamizbad wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s crazy is the minds behind the Washington Consensus favored a form of extreme capitalism that no western democracy would ever tolerate such a system on their own soil. Some ultra-capitalist die-hards have even retreated away from Liberalism in general as they found it too restrictive for their extreme ideology (they know their economic regime could never gain sustained popular support; it would need to be impos…

What’s crazy is the minds behind the Washington Consensus favored a form of extreme capitalism that no western democracy would ever tolerate such a system on their own soil. It had been tried in many places already: Chile, Indonesia, the Philippines, and (before 1979) Iran. The data were clear: it had worked very well for capitalists, but very poorly for people in the countries affected. And it mostly has come to the…

> Nor is it to disparage the broader set of social movements classified by their detractors as "woke", most of which have nothing but the best intentions.

To me it seems like they have the best intentions in the same way that religious extremists have the best intentions. But otherwise I agree with you.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#439

Post by _-david-_ »

zmgsabst wrote: post #19
the-smug-one wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang, good move to force a whole country into bankruptcy.

Seems to be working for China, as well.

The US did the opposite with China. Instead of trying to bankrupt China, the US opened up trade in hopes of creating a liberal democracy in China.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#440

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

cronix wrote: post #213
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The huge metal show in Moscow shows just how much optimism there was in that moment. If you've never seen this footage, definitely look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W7wqQwa-TU 1.6 million people in an airfield at a free concert that lasted all day. There's a documentary about it but I've not watched it. It's so disappointing the world couldn't bring that optimism to fruition, and instead kleptocrats took over.

Not to take away from that awesome concert, but Lars has stated several times it was closer to 500k, but somehow the number keeps growing... > However, Lars explained in the conversation that he doesn’t know the exact number how many people were in the concert, but he heard at the time that there were half a million people attended the show. > “Listen, it may go up by 100,000 people each year! I heard at the time it…

I just went with the wikipedia article which has two sources, both just newspaper articles, so who knows.

It's not implausible though. There've been a handful of concerts as large as 3 million apparently. That just boggles my mind. Can you imagine standing on a stage like that?

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