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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#181

Post by nxm »

avmich wrote: post #30
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Was the absence of Marshall plan happened because of the West or because of Russia's decision? > Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. Russia today is a faint ghost of the former USSR. The events in Eastern Europe show that to an extent.

Who would pay for Marshall Plan?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#183

Post by avmich »

thriftwy wrote: post #136
avmich wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd point out that USSR was much more self-reliant than Russia - you couldn't really put sanctions on Eastern block of countries, they produced everything, with certain things so good they are still competitive. Yes, market economy does greatly improve Russia's agility, but special services can't stop ruin most of what they can touch, so even market economy has limited net benefits now - while at the time of USSR the…

You can't be self-reliant when you are bankrupt and all basic neccesities are in short supply. USSR was defunct. Its communist party was also defunct. Russia is lucky to have China which produces enormous assortment of items as well as trade surplus.

USSR wasn't bankrupt for many decades - until the end, of course, but it's silly to compare unstable USSR in 1991 going through destructive transformations with Russia, which still "just" losing the was against the West - so far. You should compare USSR of 1980 with Russia today (or rather before February 24 this year) - and USSR will win in capabilities, despite the lack of market economy.

> USSR was defunct. Its communist party was also defunct.

USSR was relatively stable for decades, with all its great shortcomings.

I don't think China plays significant enough role in today's events.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#184

Post by lucideer »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> The United States didn't do enough

I think if you dig into the history a bit more closely, you'll quickly find that the United States did in fact do plenty[0][1].

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/27/world/10.2-billion-loan-t...

[1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-07-09-mn-22423-...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#185

Post by kilolima »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

We did enough. See https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russ...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#186

Post by MichaelCollins »

negus wrote: post #115
insane_dreamer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a joke. I was in Russia during the Gorby era (and early Yeltsin) and people indeed hated Gorby for his attempt to crack-down on drunkenness by limiting the purchase of vodka.

Have you heard about a single moment in time when people liked the leader of their country?

I'm having a real hard time thinking of a leader who wasn't liked by at least some of the people, and it's surely impossible to find any leader liked by literally all people in their country. So clearly it's all shades of gray.

The worst leaders in history, the Hitlers and Stalins, have enjoyed substantial if not majority popular support in their time. Biden and Trump both have millions of Americans who like them. Even Caligula was popular with the general Roman population, if only because he lowered taxes and threw money around. Maybe Ceausescu was close to universally hated, but everybody was afraid to say anything until the preference cascade occurred? But probably even he had genuine supporters.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#187

Post by bigmattystyles »

I hate that my first thought was 'On the start of Ukraine's counteroffensive which is by some reports going well for Ukraine?'. Seems highly convenient as a distraction. I have no evidence for my thought and am dismissing it. The world has made me reflexively conspiracy prone, I don't believe in most conspiracies but it sucks to think about them.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#189

Post by mhh__ »

ipnon wrote: post #79
kenned3 wrote: post #40

Quoted post unavailable.

Let me tell you why I think this is an inappropriate comment: The point of it seems not to be collaboratively extending the line of thought proposed by the original post or the parent comment, but to make the parent commenter feel some kind of personal shame or stupidity. Good commenting is more like a team sport than a martial art.

Perhaps, but equally that's a route to a monoculture - can we not question Reagan?

Americans love to glibly propitiate to Reagan's spirit (in heaven I'm assured), there's no way they could be doing so out of ignorance of the more controversial aspects of his presidency?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#190

Post by mhh__ »

hk__2 wrote: post #142
kenned3 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like telling "jokes" at Russia's expense by a man of questionable ethics? what is the point of his joke, if not to mock another country? The OP posted a quote, and i posted one too?

The author of the joke doesn’t really matter here; the point is that it’s funny, period. I’m not sure how you can see a mockery of any country in a joke that would work with literally any important person in any country.

In that case there'd be no need to mention reagan at all? most of the "Soviet" jokes people tell seem to be made up anyhow.
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