Live data from Hacker News

Day ahead electricity prices for EU

euenergy.live

581–590 of 596 posts

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that "transport" includes "to storage", which in turn includes some of the most efficient batteries in the form of connected reservoirs located at different heights so that gravity does the discharging work.

Since, as of today, electriciry cannot be stored, but is consumed the moment it is generated, we have all those problems. Base and peak load, PV and wind being less (not completely unusable as real life data shows) in line with eletricity consumption... The list goes on. And that fact is part of the reason why prices are going haywire. Electricity isn't stored, it is consumed.

I think you might not understand how a gravity battery works. You use the electricity to move water from a low basing up a mountain to a high basin. You then release that water and have it run through turbines to regenerate (a significant part of) the electricity you used to pump the water up. You don't store electricity, you store energy.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that "transport" includes "to storage", which in turn includes some of the most efficient batteries in the form of connected reservoirs located at different heights so that gravity does the discharging work.

Also remember that there is a limited supply of single-use, liquid battery that was pre-charged long ago, but unfortunately it's exhaust is hopelessly harmful.

What are you talking about? Gravity batteries are literally two lakes at different heights, connected with pipes. You pump water up when you have an electricity surplus, and let it drain down through turbines when you need power. They're about as far opposite from "single use" as you can get =)

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#583
post #572
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement about transformers makes little sense within a context of power grids. You start by pushing power into 230 V system, which has a maximum tolerance of around 250V, after that you can damage electrical equipment connected to those line. That alone will limit how much power you can push out into the grid. An then through how many transformers and miles of wires will the electricity you produce go before i…

If I have a, for example, 2kV-to-240V transformer, and I put 240V on the 240V side, how many volts do I get on the 2kV side?

Is there a point to your rhetorical question or do you have troubles understanding the difference between an ideal component vs a real component in a live system?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since, as of today, electriciry cannot be stored, but is consumed the moment it is generated, we have all those problems. Base and peak load, PV and wind being less (not completely unusable as real life data shows) in line with eletricity consumption... The list goes on. And that fact is part of the reason why prices are going haywire. Electricity isn't stored, it is consumed.

I think you might not understand how a gravity battery works. You use the electricity to move water from a low basing up a mountain to a high basin. You then release that water and have it run through turbines to regenerate (a significant part of) the electricity you used to pump the water up. You don't store electricity, you store energy.

Oh, we call those things Pumpspeicher. Sure, and just how mucj of the total produced and consumed electricity is stored that way? The amount is negligible and the theoretical capacity limited.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#585
post #579
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's "PP scale"? The typical power capacity of a gas/coal/nuclear power plant vs the typical capacity of a p.v. one. In general flourishing p.v. plants are far smaller than typical fossil/nuclear power plant. Some big projects in exotic places do exists, in early stage, like the recent Uzbekistan push (who already made unrest and armed revolts) like the old Desertec scam. But real-world active p.v. power plant of…

> In general flourishing p.v. plants are far smaller than typical fossil/nuclear power plant. Why do you consider this important, rather than the aggregate output of all of them together? As you say later, you've got PV on your own roof. If everyone in a small city does that, it's the same output as a nuclear plant, if they do that with a battery pack each (and I add a caveat about installation costs which I'm told a…

> Why do you consider this important, rather than the aggregate output of all of them together?

It's important in term of national grid design: we have a grid designed to push large amount of power from a single areas to many consumers, not ones designed to move amps around a country... It's not hyper-important especially respect with the variability of the output who impose hyper-quick generators to compensate oscillations quick enough to keep the grid on, but it's still relevant because it strain the grid significantly creating locally problematic frequency perturbation.

> As you say later, you've got PV on your own roof. If everyone in a small city does that, it's the same output as a nuclear plant, if they do that with a battery pack each (and I add a caveat about installation costs which I'm told are needlessly high in some places such as the US) then it can also be the same cost and reliability as a nuclear plant.

So far it's only in my garden, having a east-west root, but the real issue is that I'm FAR from being autonomous... To be almost autonomous (witch means no grid usage most of the year) I'll need something like 200kWh storage with the needed p.v. to recharge at least 40kWh in 3-4 hours + supply in the same amount of time enough peak power to run most home appliances like 3kW (absorption) heat-pump to quickly heat enough water to pass the rest of the day, night and new early morning in cold winter days, +5-6kW of various home appliances (dishwasher, washing machine, ...) to been able to very quickly do most high power usages in few hours of sunny days in winter dedicating the rest just to basic self-consumption to strain batteries the minimum possible and passing the night with no more than 15% daily DoD. That's means something impossible in essentially all EU cities (too dense) and possible only for some not-so-small homes around the EU south. Nothing more.

Oh, if I add H₂ to the game, something not on sale so far and then something I can't add anyway no matter how much money I put on the table, the price and needed equipment skyrocket even more... Perhaps in France just 2-3% of total population can do something like the only lithium + p.v. + hot water storage. All the rest can't economically and most of them even physically constrained by their homes and terrain sizes.

> What Uzbekistan push? What are the rioters supposed to do with any of this?

http://intellinews.com/sun-drenched-uzbekistan-on-the-verge-... or https://thediplomat.com/2022/08/solar-energy-project-leaves-...

something similar happen in Australia https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/bold-steps-needed-to-power...

Azerbaijan https://bbj.hu/economy/energy/green-energy/hungary-joins-aze... and others sunny and not much inhabited lands... All with similar plots.

> What Desertec scam?

http://www.desertec-uk.org.uk/reports/DII/DPP_2050_Study.pdf Desertec was, partially is, since partially was founded and some little PP was made, by a classic private-public mafia-aggregation ranging from major Germans banks, Siemens, ABB, Cevital, ... others from energy sectors, even the Morocco's Royal funds and others big names from Ignacio Campino, Fritzhjof Finkbeiner, Hassan bin Talal etc so far they have created some plants, mostly eolic, in western Sahara with a series of abuse on local population and polemics about the real usefulness of the project.

> I have no idea what this is trying to say.

Essentially that so far already-made and functioning p.v. plants have produced intermittent energy at rates well below the peak power in means. Like you have a 100MWp or a 5kWp plant, normal daily production is well below the 100MW or 5kW nominal power. For instance today my peak p.v. power was 4355W for few seconds. Most of the day I was below 3kW. That's what I'm try to say in my poor English: you can't count real power on the sum of p.v. modules peak power.

> What do you mean "how does it count"? It's a significant contributor to the global electricity supply.

We need to keep 50/60Hz in the grid. That means if we have let's say 5GW p.v. in a country during a sunny day that country still need at least 2.5 or more GW classic power plants on-line ready to compensate p.v. production variation. Of course they do not produce actually 2.5GW but to be ready and quick enough they need to be powered on and that's means they consume gas/coal etc or they are NPP and in that case there is no point in lowering their production to use p.v. since they cost the same used at full power or left in stand-by.

> Given lithium batteries are the most expensive storage option, and despite that cost it's still something close enough you're unsure about, and it's still getting cheaper, why are you so pessimistic?

So far they are the only realistic option on sale, except pumped hydro witch is not something domestic, and they have MANY issues and limits. The biggest is their limited operational life compared to their costs. You can't discharge daily more than 10-15% of the battery if you want to hope it will last around 10 years. You need to regularly fully charge the battery to balance cells, but in that case you need something, like the grid, to reject cyclic overvoltages when a load drops and the battery/p.v. inverters are not lower their production fast enough or you strain the battery anyway (similar problems for BEVs, you need to charge them 100% regularly but also need to consume a bit before drive or accept the loss of generative breaking (witch means in practice "the engine break" if you have a long descent for instance, and still strain the battery a bit when you lift the foot on the accelerator...). Even with 10% DoD/day, overvoltage rejects to the grid (CC included, something not very legal in some countries) etc you lost 1.something% a year of battery capacity.

Do you really think we can produce let's say 40kWh battery for let's say 5k€ maximum, for most homes (at least) of a country in few years + the relevant recycling when they EOLs + all the batteries needed for EV etc? I honestly doubt. It's far more likely to build many NPP in far less time.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#586
post #580
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The estimated total energy Sun push toward Earth have little to do with the potential fraction of p.v. we can really deploy. There are enormous constraints from water, too hot places, areas subject to floods, wildfires, ... without counting the real capacity to build and replace solar panels and batteries witch so far no one really know. About projects, in any field, big, complex projects normally never get done well…

Those things don't add up to a factor of ten thousand. Off topic, but why do you consistently spell "which" as "witch"? I sympathise if it's ESL, but if so: the latter refers to pointy hats and pentagrams, not a determiner.

> Off topic, but why do you consistently spell "which" as "witch"?

Sorry, I'm Italian living in France, my English is far from good...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#587
post #578
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really think that the actual crisis is due to a single man choice? Try a small game, put PR and the emotion they push aside: who need a war today? If you are honest you have to admit that the most in need of a war are UK first, USA second. UK need a war outside to avoid a civil war inside. Having essentially lost their "empire" status they are simply unable to live anymore. A war would compact people and if w…

It’s Russia who started the war. Not UK, not US and not China.

Well... The EU: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf and the USA RAND https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/R... do not agree that much... Recently disclosed old ops like https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC%20%20%20VOL... suggest that's not a new thing.

Long story short: yes, is Russia that have crossed the border, but no, it's not it who start the war in reality.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#588
post #587
post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s Russia who started the war. Not UK, not US and not China.

Well... The EU: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf and the USA RAND https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/R... do not agree that much... Recently disclosed old ops like https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC%20%20%20VOL... suggest that's not a new thing. Long story short: yes, is Russia that have crossed the border, but no, it's not it who start the war in reality.

It was Russia who started war in 2014, and - now officially nazi - escalated in February. None of your links claim or suggest otherwise. What they describe is just politics - and does not on any way give Russia the right to invade.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#589
post #588
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... The EU: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf and the USA RAND https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/R... do not agree that much... Recently disclosed old ops like https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC%20%20%20VOL... suggest that's not a new thing. Long story short: yes, is Russia that have crossed the border, but no, it's not it who start the war in reality.

It was Russia who started war in 2014, and - now officially nazi - escalated in February. None of your links claim or suggest otherwise. What they describe is just politics - and does not on any way give Russia the right to invade.

What is the right to invade for you? Something like pretending there are hidden mass disruption weapons you know are not there but you want to invade because the about-to-be-invaded country decide to sell oil in € instead of dollars? Or pretending that a country you want to control hide someone you look for? Or pretending there is a repressive government while you just pursue United Fruits co private interest?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Britain is the best position country in Europe for wind and tidal power. There was a project to pay down cable to import reliable, cheap 24/7 power from Iceland and hobernment said 'nah'. They also cancelled a 340 MW tidal project

But the UK has HVDC line to norway right?

Yes it does, in fact the UK is in the process of building many more HVDC interconnectors (see table in 3rd section of page) https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy...
Post reply on HN