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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#571

Post by Mikeb85 »

effie wrote: post #559
atemerev wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fall of Ukraine will mean the beginning of the new Soviet Union (but even _more_ evil), and most probably a world war, so it should be prevented at all costs possible. Not event to mention that the invasion is plainly evil, and should be repealed.

> new Soviet Union Any reason to think this? Did Soviet Union form by Russia invading and conquering another country? No, it was a result of fall of the Russian empire and the Russian civil war. The conditions now are very different. Fall of Ukraine would mean political win for Putin and his acolytes, maybe another invasion later on. But Soviet Union? More like stronger Russia, a revert to the Russian Empire.

Watch Russian state media. Literally stuff they say...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#572

Post by ben_w »

nec4b wrote: post #570
ben_w wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transformers are quite capable of working in either direction.

Your statement about transformers makes little sense within a context of power grids. You start by pushing power into 230 V system, which has a maximum tolerance of around 250V, after that you can damage electrical equipment connected to those line. That alone will limit how much power you can push out into the grid. An then through how many transformers and miles of wires will the electricity you produce go before i…

If I have a, for example, 2kV-to-240V transformer, and I put 240V on the 240V side, how many volts do I get on the 2kV side?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#573

Post by kyriakos »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #497
kyriakos wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Cyprus which experiences sunshine almost 365 days a year and has an isolated power grid from the rest of the world. We also suffer from the incompetency of Greece and Spain but I believe solar parks are not the solution. Building solar parks is a waste of land which could be used for other purposes (agriculture for example). A much better solution is to ensure every single building has solar panels on its r…

You wrote: > From a stricly economic view, many times a solar park in a very sunny place is more economically efficient than agriculture. That said, including social and political views, of course, we need enough agriculture to feed our societies!

I have unfortunately witnessed fields of orange trees being cut down and replaced with PV panels. Our local market has indeed an oversupply of oranges (to the point that sometimes it's more cost effective not to cut fruit rather than pay employees to do it) but I can't help to think if removing fully grown trees is better for the environment.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#574

Post by balderdash »

neural_thing wrote: post #335
balderdash wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes gas different from wheat? US is a huge exporter of wheat, that doesn’t mean us farmers/traders don’t have their eye on what Ukrainian shortfalls imply for global balances? Same thing for gas, uk is competing with their neighbors for a resource that just got a whole lot more scarce (locally), causing prices to rise

Gas is, well, a gas. The only way to transport it in the absence of pipelines is liquifying it. LNG infrastructure is very hard to build, and right now there's no additional LNG capacity to ship gas to Europe. It takes a while to build. See https://doomberg.substack.com/p/have-fun-staying-cold From last November

Obviously, and obviously transporting and storing nat gas drives pretty large basis spreads globally.

You still haven’t addressed WHY the fundamental price setting mechanism of nat gas would be any different from any other commodity.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#575

Post by kkfx »

ben_w wrote: post #567
kkfx wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have the capacity to produce approximately ten thousand times our current global power usage from ground-level PV. I'm a bit skeptical, but in any case consider a thing: we need to count an initial construction BUT also a regular substitution of old modules, managing their disposal (witch actually is just shred and bury in most cases) and in doing so we need to count the life cycle: if we construct something slo…

> I'm a bit skeptical 1.740 × 10^17 W ≈ total power received by Earth from the Sun 1.91 × 10^13 ≈ average total power consumption of the human world in 2019 > If we are quick I don't know about the growth of batteries other than "factories are being made as fast as they can be, and car companies are investing in mines now", the growth of PV is still approximately exponential. Also, if PV production switches from grow…

The estimated total energy Sun push toward Earth have little to do with the potential fraction of p.v. we can really deploy. There are enormous constraints from water, too hot places, areas subject to floods, wildfires, ... without counting the real capacity to build and replace solar panels and batteries witch so far no one really know.

About projects, in any field, big, complex projects normally never get done well, smaller normally succeed. That's is. Since it's valid from IT to A&D why it should be different for something else?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#576

Post by kkfx »

ben_w wrote: post #568
kkfx wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, recycling is possible, but so far it's almost not done because it's still far more expensive than mining... Perhaps a day things will be different, but seen the actual progress I'm not such optimistic... About hydrogen... Well... How much it costs an hydrolysis plant with relevant compression system and storage PLUS the needed fuel-cell to use it once milked? Personally I've already spent for a new house, with r…

I'm finding it difficult to parse what you're saying; it feels like you're using speech recognition and not proofreading the output? In particular: > Yes, some p.v. plants pops up continuously but they are small in classic PP scale terms and just grid-connected systems. What's "PP scale"? And are you aware the combined nameplate capacity of all global PV is now close to one terawatt?

> What's "PP scale"?

The typical power capacity of a gas/coal/nuclear power plant vs the typical capacity of a p.v. one. In general flourishing p.v. plants are far smaller than typical fossil/nuclear power plant. Some big projects in exotic places do exists, in early stage, like the recent Uzbekistan push (who already made unrest and armed revolts) like the old Desertec scam. But real-world active p.v. power plant offer a nominal far little mean power respect of the others.

> And are you aware the combined nameplate capacity of all global PV is now close to one terawatt?

How does it count? I can state equally that the actual uranium collected in human hands can produce far far far more, but that's just a statement simply because "nominal" count nothing. What count is that so far no one is autonomous with p.v. alone, living a normal life, running business etc and so few are partially autonomous with very expensive and little lasting batteries. I'm one of them, since I have a small p.v. with lithium storage. Oh with the artificially skyrocketed electricity prices perhaps (still unsure) it will pay back. But I still need the grid for 50% of my consumption, while some state enthusiastically that "hey you can produce 130% of your energy needs", witch is formally true, practically false because I can't shift my consumption just when the Sun shine AND use it at 100%. I call it the difference between the beancounter computed reality and the physical world reality. Seeing that, and the actual climate I suspect we have the same issue with Green New Deal claims.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#577

Post by mantas »

goodpoint wrote: post #560
mantas wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulation protects only so long till it heats up. Then it keeps the heat inside.

No, that's just thermal mass and it's zero-sum. That's why you need aircon. Removing insulation doesn't magically make your home cooler.

Removing insulation means house cools down fast once sun goes down. Which is important for sleeping. While there're myriad of ways to handle heat during the day.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#578

Post by trasz »

kkfx wrote: post #473
lenkite wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just need to wait for Putin to conquer the world and build Putin Pipes.

Did you really think that the actual crisis is due to a single man choice? Try a small game, put PR and the emotion they push aside: who need a war today? If you are honest you have to admit that the most in need of a war are UK first, USA second. UK need a war outside to avoid a civil war inside. Having essentially lost their "empire" status they are simply unable to live anymore. A war would compact people and if w…

It’s Russia who started the war. Not UK, not US and not China.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#579

Post by ben_w »

kkfx wrote: post #576
ben_w wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm finding it difficult to parse what you're saying; it feels like you're using speech recognition and not proofreading the output? In particular: > Yes, some p.v. plants pops up continuously but they are small in classic PP scale terms and just grid-connected systems. What's "PP scale"? And are you aware the combined nameplate capacity of all global PV is now close to one terawatt?

> What's "PP scale"? The typical power capacity of a gas/coal/nuclear power plant vs the typical capacity of a p.v. one. In general flourishing p.v. plants are far smaller than typical fossil/nuclear power plant. Some big projects in exotic places do exists, in early stage, like the recent Uzbekistan push (who already made unrest and armed revolts) like the old Desertec scam. But real-world active p.v. power plant of…

> In general flourishing p.v. plants are far smaller than typical fossil/nuclear power plant.

Why do you consider this important, rather than the aggregate output of all of them together?

As you say later, you've got PV on your own roof. If everyone in a small city does that, it's the same output as a nuclear plant, if they do that with a battery pack each (and I add a caveat about installation costs which I'm told are needlessly high in some places such as the US) then it can also be the same cost and reliability as a nuclear plant.

(Nuclear is expensive, so batteries backing PV is not (yet) no-brainer cheap, this is part of why I suggest hydrogen and/or global grid whenever the topic comes up).

> Some big projects in exotic places do exists, in early stage, like the recent Uzbekistan push (who already made unrest and armed revolts) like the old Desertec scam.

What Uzbekistan push? What are the rioters supposed to do with any of this?

What Desertec scam? The investors backing out? Because that's just normal for business, and the organisation of that name is still around.

> offer a nominal far little mean power respect of the others.

I have no idea what this is trying to say.

> How does it count? I can state equally that the actual uranium collected in human hands can produce far far far more, but that's just a statement simply because "nominal" count nothing.

What do you mean "how does it count"? It's a significant contributor to the global electricity supply.

> I'm one of them, since I have a small p.v. with lithium storage. Oh with the artificially skyrocketed electricity prices perhaps (still unsure) it will pay back.

Given lithium batteries are the most expensive storage option, and despite that cost it's still something close enough you're unsure about, and it's still getting cheaper, why are you so pessimistic?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#580

Post by ben_w »

kkfx wrote: post #575
ben_w wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a bit skeptical 1.740 × 10^17 W ≈ total power received by Earth from the Sun 1.91 × 10^13 ≈ average total power consumption of the human world in 2019 > If we are quick I don't know about the growth of batteries other than "factories are being made as fast as they can be, and car companies are investing in mines now", the growth of PV is still approximately exponential. Also, if PV production switches from grow…

The estimated total energy Sun push toward Earth have little to do with the potential fraction of p.v. we can really deploy. There are enormous constraints from water, too hot places, areas subject to floods, wildfires, ... without counting the real capacity to build and replace solar panels and batteries witch so far no one really know. About projects, in any field, big, complex projects normally never get done well…

Those things don't add up to a factor of ten thousand.

Off topic, but why do you consistently spell "which" as "witch"? I sympathise if it's ESL, but if so: the latter refers to pointy hats and pentagrams, not a determiner.

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