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The silent majority in software

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: The silent majority in software

#131

Post by nvarsj »

t_mann wrote: post #119
danwee wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many developers (over 35 years old) in Europe doing the same (they earn above the average european salary, so like 140K EUR/year or so): Java, no HN, no Linkedin, no FAANG, no leetcode, no switching jobs every 2 years. They have families, they are normal people. If you ask them about monads, they would have no idea (like me) what are you talking about. That's the path I'm heading to (hopefully).

140k EUR for a dev role? Normally I'd say you're delusional, but since you say you actually know people who consider that normal, may I ask which country(ies) you're talking about (since it's apparently not Switzerland or Norway, where I might have believed it)? I still have a strong suspicion that either your friends gave you wildly inflated numbers, or you happen to know some serious outliers. Check this out for a…

140k is possible, it's probably an outlier though for a perm role. I worked at a SF based start up and that is around the salary they paid EMEA principal engineers. FAANG will pay more than that for a senior engineer (around 200k). As a contractor you can also hit this number pretty easily (it's around 600/day).

Re: The silent majority in software

#132

Post by Transfinity »

pavlov wrote: post #67
donatj wrote: post #59

> Sometimes I’ve seen Pull Requests from empty accounts with a brief explanation of what was implemented. They just submit bug fixes, no drama. Over half my coworkers including some very talented developers have no public repos. As someone with almost 200 that always blows my mind. How do you work in software for years and not find some little hole you want to fill. That’s not a judgment call, that’s an honest questi…

Great salespeople aren’t expected to run lemonade stands after work. “You’re so good at sales, how come you don’t want to sell something in the evening? There must be something you’re itching to sell to your neighbors.” Software engineers seem unique among professionals that you’re expected to maintain a hobbyist body of work that’s also your professional calling card.

I will occasionally file bug reports or even submit fixes to open source projects as part of doing my job. As an engineer, one of my responsibilities is to maintain the commons - without it I would be much less productive. On the other hand I have a lot of autonomy in my work, a chill boss and a team that doesn't need to crunch. If someone I report to got grumpy I would stop, and I definitely don't do this on my own time.

Re: The silent majority in software

#133

Post by kaba0 »

goodpoint wrote: post #118
jongjong wrote: post #52

I used to be part of the silent majority of software developers but that changed after I became disillusioned about the direction of the industry. Nowadays, I'm basically forced to use certain inefficient tools in order to get a job because a bunch of highly vocal junior devs who got their way. It's a bit like in politics; when times are good for the majority, most normal people aren't interested in politics; they ha…

Same here. Many popular and needlessly complex tools, especially around devops... used only because they are popular. Even worse, people don't even bother to look at other options even if it's just to learn from them. Compare the new hip thing with a different one and people get defensive.

Strangely enough I feel that we tell ourselves again and again that this problem is not as hard, the previous iteration of programs trying to solve it were just written by incompetent people. It can be made so much easier - the program gets built but in the process the developers realize that it has plenty of edge cases not solved by this easier version and the same complexity gets bolted on later.

The fact is, there is an essential complexity that simply can not ever be reduced. But we should also strive to not get blinded by the n+1 failed, bad attempt because true, novel approaches do turn up from time to time, e.g. nix actually solves the dependency hell problem.

Re: The silent majority in software

#134

Post by quickthrower2 »

pjerem wrote: post #77
donatj wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am regularly up at night in a cold sweat worrying about how if I suddenly needed to find a new job I’d have to learn some sort of front end JavaScript framework.

Could be worse. I am regularly up at night in a cold sweat worrying about how if I suddenly find a technically fulfilling job, realizing I forgot everything about computers after a decade on working on meaningless front end JavaScript framework.

Where is the job where you get to work on compilers. If it is not React it is probably the glorious back end, making some graphql endpoints talk to mongodb or suchlike. Or devops, fight k8s!

Re: The silent majority in software

#135

Post by actually_a_dog »

int_19h wrote: post #49
actually_a_dog wrote: post #24

Try criticizing capitalism or "free markets" sometime.

As someone far left, I criticize capitalism routinely here, and it usually gets upvoted. As for free markets, it's hard to criticize something that is largely absent in our modern economy: capitalism is actively hostile to free markets and is basically a positive feedback loop for market monopolization. But I've seen people criticize free markets (as they understand them) and get upvoted as well, many times.

[flagged]

Re: The silent majority in software

#136

Post by t_mann »

richeyryan wrote: post #127
t_mann wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

140k EUR for a dev role? Normally I'd say you're delusional, but since you say you actually know people who consider that normal, may I ask which country(ies) you're talking about (since it's apparently not Switzerland or Norway, where I might have believed it)? I still have a strong suspicion that either your friends gave you wildly inflated numbers, or you happen to know some serious outliers. Check this out for a…

That site seems to exclude Ireland entirely, which would I think would come in ahead of Germany for salaries and is both a European and Eurozone country.

And by how much would you expect it to be ahead? Spoiler alert, I wouldn't set my hopes too high:

https://ie.talent.com/salary?job=software+developer https://de.talent.com/salary?job=software+developer

(this says Ireland is almost on par with Germany, which sounds about right)

Re: The silent majority in software

#137

Post by veltas »

gernb wrote: post #80
veltas wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that in my own experience, if you go against the zeitgeist on HN you can often get by as long as you're sensitive/respectful and intelligent on the issue. There are people who downvote things they disagree with, but I think most people on here downvote people who sound unconstructive or argumentative. And at the end of the day, if you're respectful etc, who cares about being downvoted or having people argu…

you're supposed to downvote things you disagree with on HN. Here's Dang pointing to PG saying that downvoting for disagreeing is what you're supposed to do https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

I think it's healthy for the website that many people reserve downvotes for stuff that really 'deserves' it. But good to remember the mods position so you don't go around moaning about rule breaking voting. And how could you police that anyway?

Re: The silent majority in software

#138

Post by nonrandomstring »

flarg wrote: post #94
nonrandomstring wrote: post #48

I think what the author says is true. The mass of digital workers use older, established and unfashionable technology, and are neither vocal nor particularly curious about the work. But there's an implication of moral purity at play. Are those who just quietly "mind their own business" a good, wholesome but misrepresented group? On the contrary, I think that in matters with far reaching consequences, which computing…

Curious? Hell yes. Happy to keep quiet for as long as the money keeps coming? Hell yes.

Fair play. Eyes on the road keep driving isn't a bad way. At least in your mind you're thinking about what next and where to turn the wheel.

Re: The silent majority in software

#139

Post by galoisgirl »

cubancigar11 wrote: post #72
donatj wrote: post #59

> Sometimes I’ve seen Pull Requests from empty accounts with a brief explanation of what was implemented. They just submit bug fixes, no drama. Over half my coworkers including some very talented developers have no public repos. As someone with almost 200 that always blows my mind. How do you work in software for years and not find some little hole you want to fill. That’s not a judgment call, that’s an honest questi…

Because they have no love for the job. They are doing it for something else and so are only interested in working on things that have a visible and clear return. These people are also good at politics. There is a reason bill gates is rich and rms isn't.

Not necessarily. I love my job, and I keep a work-life balance to keep it that way.

Love does not mean spending every waking hour on something.

I love my spouse, yet I need to socialize with other people, as well as alone time.

Re: The silent majority in software

#140

Post by t_mann »

nvarsj wrote: post #131
t_mann wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

140k EUR for a dev role? Normally I'd say you're delusional, but since you say you actually know people who consider that normal, may I ask which country(ies) you're talking about (since it's apparently not Switzerland or Norway, where I might have believed it)? I still have a strong suspicion that either your friends gave you wildly inflated numbers, or you happen to know some serious outliers. Check this out for a…

140k is possible, it's probably an outlier though for a perm role. I worked at a SF based start up and that is around the salary they paid EMEA principal engineers. FAANG will pay more than that for a senior engineer (around 200k). As a contractor you can also hit this number pretty easily (it's around 600/day).

The GP said 140k was at or above the average, while the data suggests that it's an extreme outlier. But tbh I struggle to believe it even for senior roles at a SV start-up. Do you know what the reasoning was for paying so far above the market?

Freelancing is a different story.

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