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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

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Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is, effectively, religion/faith in a particular set of base presumptions (axioms of set theory or logic theory guide all "logical" reasoning). Basically, limits of human mind understanding things come with just having to trust some things are simply so. The biggest difference from things more commonly referred to as "religions" is that science invites you to challenge all these assumptions and look for a bett…

No. Faith is belief without evidence or belief in the presence of contrary evidence. If we were to suppose the "base presumptions" of science were on the same level as religious claims, then they could be arbitrarily ignored without real-world consequences.

Disclaimer: not a scientist.

Part1:

For the sake of the argument: Have you seen evidence of scientific fact-x? (For example x=“water is made of H2 + O”)

Since set of “x” is so wast, no matter who you are, for most of “x” the answer will be “NO”. Time, accessible equipment and brain-capability constraints force us to outsource the evidence check to others. (even smartest scientists read papers instead of reproducing all experiments)

Part2:

I would like to distinguish two meanings/aspects of word “Science” used by in various contexts:

- scientific method - hypothesis, experiment, …

- “institution of society” -distinct group in society, view/expectation by the rest of society, education, trusted sources and similar

Methods of science and religion are very different. But as “institutions”, they do have some parallels.

- Both offer basic explanation of reality.

- In both cases people trust stuff written by others.

- Both have consistency if you accept some basic truths.

To sum it up:

I (and most) believe that “carbon has 6 protons“ without evidence. The basis of this belief is trust in science (the institution of society) based on its authority, stated principles&process. But in the end laypeople don’t have evidence for that.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After I pick up the crack pipe from my HN brother, I come to the same conclusion. Most questions aren't even answerable in a cosmic context because they become ill formed at that level.

After requesting the crack pipe from my fellow traveler, I conclude that the answer doesn’t matter. The universe Is.

The universe is only made of matter so it is true in the sense that it exists but it is not the definition nor the root of creation of Existence itself. That’s where the “I AM” from the Bible echo even more what you say and add so much meaning to it. God Is.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting down my bong and loading another, I remark to the travelers that the human brain is the only set of atoms in the universe which wonders why they are there. All the other atoms seem perfectly happy to exist at all.

> only set of atoms in the universe Being a passerby on the street after hearing someone say that while they grind their next dose, I stop and comment that that was an incredible narcissistic observation for someone from a species who hasn't even colonised another solar system yet.

While wondering around the market, I come and hear and will notice that ironically the fact that this universe have “narcissism” in itself in it just proves, also maybe not that happily, that we exist regardless of being able to colonise systems or not. Because we are and we think. We exists.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#514
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Faith is belief without evidence or belief in the presence of contrary evidence. If we were to suppose the "base presumptions" of science were on the same level as religious claims, then they could be arbitrarily ignored without real-world consequences.

Disclaimer: not a scientist. Part1: For the sake of the argument: Have you seen evidence of scientific fact-x? (For example x=“water is made of H2 + O”) Since set of “x” is so wast, no matter who you are, for most of “x” the answer will be “NO”. Time, accessible equipment and brain-capability constraints force us to outsource the evidence check to others. (even smartest scientists read papers instead of reproducing a…

You can e.g. electrolyze water at home and see bubbles. Of course this proves nothing but the fact that water has something in it that makes bubbles at plus or minus, and regularly so. You can add salt/soda and see that it goes faster. All this is not a direct evidence of H or O or what electricity is, but at least some indirect one that can be progressed further, even if you won’t.

You can buy a complex device like a microwave oven or a chemistry lab and experiment with them, checking how they map to scientific knowledge, and asking on physics/chemistry SE about your findings and getting answers from people completely uninterested of fooling you, who are not knowledgeable of what you’re doing besides what you described.

It’s harder with C=6, but by messing with chemicals you can at least make some natural sense of what 6 means in that theory.

Religion at its face value cannot be experimented on at all. Any coincidences (if you find what to experiment on) are so irregular that can only be explained by statistics, even if you won’t. The only way to “study” religious knowledge is to fall for an interpretation of the day, which is always based on some experimental knowledge which others extracted from nature, because these people are interested in converting more adepts from a general population.

You’re correct that there is no direct way to learn and proof to yourself due to materialistic limitations. But when you take plausible interests and statistical phenomena into account, you can easily see yourself what has much more evidential depth and innocence of presupposition.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#515
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even secondary states might be impossible to explain, by the GP argument. > Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. The origin has infinite history. > God must be laughing at us. No, because God is, like us, the descendant of something else, or else has infinite history. What if the history is cyclic? Then there is no origin.

> What if the history is cyclic? Then there is no origin. But what started the cycle? I guess we as humans are the ones at fault here, because we can't accept something infinite as an answer in the real physical world.

> > What if the history is cyclic? Then there is no origin.

> But what started the cycle?

It's a bit like asking where is the beginning of a circle, it doesn't make sense..

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#516
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The origin can’t be explained, because if it was explained it wouldn’t be the origin anymore. So the question of the origin is ill-posed. Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. In the end, nothing makes sense. God must be laughing at us.

Even secondary states might be impossible to explain, by the GP argument. > Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. The origin has infinite history. > God must be laughing at us. No, because God is, like us, the descendant of something else, or else has infinite history. What if the history is cyclic? Then there is no origin.

I guess God has to be not like everything else. He has to have access to a larger set of axioms or something. Transcendence allows him to go beyond what makes sense. I mean, I’ve no idea what I’m talking about, but I have to acknowledge that the universe exists even if its existence makes no sense. I feel like I have to resign in the end, and I’m not even a religious person.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took him 8 minutes to actually set himself up to actually start talking and the first thing that came out of Dr Ali's mouth is a lie. He said of 4 prominent authors promoting atheism that he described as the four horsemen of atheism that their primary argument is that god isn't good ergo god isn't real. This...just isn't true. It's a gross reduction. I'm 8 minutes in and your speaker's only substantial point is a…

> He said of 4 prominent authors promoting atheism that he described as the four horsemen of atheism that their primary argument is that god isn't good ergo god isn't real. This...just isn't true. How is it a lie? It's a summary, sure, he can only go into so much given the time. He shows a book by one of them and the title is a giveaway of that summary. > false rant about Islam being inherently peaceful Based on what…

That is the only logical conclusion to arrive at from an atheistic world view, at least he's being honest with himself. More atheists should be honest with themselves as well and we'll see how things end up.

People may speak fantasies, but act - they mostly act as they honestly think. “Things” will end up just as they are now. You are dehumanizing atheists and, as I suspect, anyone who doesn’t follow your “ethical” god.

We all have a right to disagree, but thinking that all ethical people who do not agree with you are just not honest with themselves is delusional. You’re basically saying that if your god doesn’t prohibit something that other people may find highly unethical in their culture, you will still do that. That’s the essence of how most people see your religion.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I get your point, are you saying the moon and the sun, the things we now know cause the tides, are small things?

My point is that you could replace a couple words in your comment to get the following, and it would've been conceivable for a person to say a thousand years ago on their first day at the ocean. And yet it wouldn't have been accurate. > The reason tides always rising is plausible if we see tides rising now is simply that's it's far more plausible nothing so special ever happened as to change the motion of the entire…

Are you aware that the tides rise and recede twice a day? Nobody has ever tough a tide would go on for ever, simply by the definition of what a tide is.

But even beside that, the reasons why the ocean has tides are very big indeed. You could try making the argument with a Tsunami, but those also require huge motions of the Earth to happen at any impressive scale.

Finally, the ocean remain big even now!

Honestly I don't get what you were going for, it like an argument version of when sideshow bob is trapped in a field of rakes, every step brings pain.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#519
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're following the religion of scientism.

Science is not a religion. If scientism means thinking that science is the best tool we have right now to explain reality then I guess yea I'm pro science. But it's very far from a religion. BTW science does not claim to know it all or even be able to know it all. In fact it is an important part of science to find the limits of science.

The “war” between religion and science as you are attempting to draw here, is in fact a fantasy, an illusion, the fruit of a tragic misunderstanding.

First, in a very real sense, the modern physical sciences came from religion. The great founders of science—Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Descartes, etc.—were, without exception, trained in ecclesially sponsored schools and universities. It was under the aegis of the church that they took in their physics, their astronomy, and their mathematics. More specifically, they learned in those institutions two essentially theological truths necessary for the emergence of the experimental sciences—namely, that the universe is not God and that the universe, in every nook and cranny, is marked by intelligibility. If nature were divine—as indeed it is considered to be in many religions, philosophies, and mysticisms—then it could never be an apt subject for observation, analysis, and experimentation. And if nature were simply chaotic, void of form, it would never yield up the harmonies and patterned intelligibilities that scientists readily seek. When these two truths, which are both a function of the doctrine of creation, obtain, the sciences can get underway.

Second, when science and theology are properly understood, they are not in conflict, since they are not competing for primacy on the same playing field, like opposing football teams. Utilizing the scientific method, the physical sciences deal with events, objects, dynamics, and relationships within the empirically verifiable order. Theology, employing an entirely different method, deals with God and the things of God—and God is not an object in the world, not a reality circumscribed within the context of nature. As Thomas Aquinas put it, God is not ens summum (highest being), but rather ipsum esse (the act of being as such)—which is to say, God is not a being among beings, but instead the reason why there is an empirically observable universe at all. In this way, he is like the author of a richly complex novel. Charles Dickens never appears as a character in any of his sprawling narratives, yet he is the reason why any of those characters exist at all. Accordingly, the sciences, as such, can never adjudicate the question of God’s existence nor speak of his activity or attributes. Another type of rationality—not in competition with scientific rationality—is required for the determination of those matters.

And this brings me to my third point: as parent said, _scientism_ is not science. Sadly rampant today, especially among the young, scientism is the reduction of all knowledge to the scientific form of knowledge. The undeniable success of the physical sciences and the extraordinary usefulness of the technologies to which they have given rise have produced in the minds of many this conviction, but it represents a tragic impoverishment. A chemist might be able to tell us the chemical makeup of the paints that Michelangelo used on the Sistine Ceiling, but he couldn’t, qua scientist, tell us a thing about what makes that work of art so beautiful. A geologist might be able to tell us the stratification of the earth below the city of Chicago, but he could never, again qua scientist, tell us whether that city is being justly or unjustly governed. There isn’t a trace of the scientific method in Romeo and Juliet, but who would be so stupid as to assert that that play tells us nothing true about the nature of love. In a similar way, the great texts of the Bible and the theological tradition are not “scientific,” but they nevertheless speak the profoundest truths about God, creation, sin, redemption, grace, etc. Both the cause and effect of scientism, sadly, is the attenuation of the liberal arts in our institutions of higher education. Rather than appreciating literature, history, philosophy, and religion as conduits of objective truth, many today relegate these to the arena of subjective feeling or subject them to withering ideological criticism.

My fourth and final point is this: Galileo is one paragraph in one chapter of a very long book. The great astronomer is often invoked as the patron saint of heroic scientists struggling to free themselves from the obscurantism and irrationality of religion. The censorship of his books by the Church, and the great scientist’s virtual imprisonment at the behest of the pope, is taken as the dark paradigm of the Church/science relationship. Obviously, the Galileo episode was hardly the Church’s finest moment, and in point of fact, John Paul II, expressing real contrition, explicitly apologized for it. But to use it as the lens for viewing the play between faith and science is crucially inadequate. There have been, from the earliest days of the modern sciences, thousands of deeply religious people involved in scientific research and investigation. To name just a handful: Copernicus, revolutionary cosmologist and a third order Dominican; Nicholas Steno, the father of geology and a bishop of the Church; Louis Pasteur, one of the founders of microbiology and a devout Catholic layman; Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics and an Augustinian friar; Georges Lemaître, formulator of the Big Bang theory of cosmic origins and a Catholic priest; Mary Kenneth Keller, the first woman in the United States to receive a doctorate in computer science and a Catholic religious sister. I believe it is fair to say that all of these figures understood the fundamental points that I have laid out in this article and therefore saw that they could be utterly devoted to both their science and their faith.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#520
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is, effectively, religion/faith in a particular set of base presumptions (axioms of set theory or logic theory guide all "logical" reasoning). Basically, limits of human mind understanding things come with just having to trust some things are simply so. The biggest difference from things more commonly referred to as "religions" is that science invites you to challenge all these assumptions and look for a bett…

> Science is, effectively, religion/faith No. No no no no no!!! Science is a process . The result of that process is explanations for phenomena. And the reason this matters is that the particular explanations produced by the scientific process turn out to give you the power to make extraordinarily accurate predictions about (certain aspects of) the future, and thus give you a tremendous amount of leverage in becoming…

You may see the above as a critique of science: I actually consider it a positive aspect that puts it way above traditional religions.

The fact that I recognize there are both faith and religious elements to science only makes it easier to explain how and why science is better than religion.

Note that science similarly includes a lot of areas where our predictions are not "extraordinarily accurate" (all the statistics-based science, like medicine, social sciences...) in any particular case, yet it's still science because we recognize the limits (eg. "with a large number of samples, this will mostly happen").

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