Live data from Hacker News

We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

backreaction.blogspot.com

421–430 of 610 posts

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#421
post #111

John Wheeler popularized the term "it from bit" and the idea of a participatory universe. The limits of human observation aside, it could be that the universe itself doesn't really know how it began. If a superheated plasma is indifferent to being in a 5 dimensional black hole as opposed to a state where only space exists, then, in a sense, there isn't any difference between the two explanations (given that the plasm…

The origin can’t be explained, because if it was explained it wouldn’t be the origin anymore.

So the question of the origin is ill-posed. Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense.

In the end, nothing makes sense. God must be laughing at us.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#422
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does having texts with some degree of interpretation have to do with whether those texts are true or not? Sounds like a genetic fallacy. You are putting words in my mouth. I said texts that are vague and open to a lot of interpretation can cause a lot of issues. Especially when those interpretations are used to make life choices and doubly so when making choices about others. > My claim is that without religio…

Not all texts are vague and open to interpretation. A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. The Quran itself calls out the issue, and Muslim scholars from the very beginning have a foundation on which to base rulings. > so when making choices about others By living in society, someone is making choices on the behalf of another regardless of whether that society is…

  > Not all texts are vague and open to interpretation. A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. The Quran itself calls out the issue, and Muslim scholars from the very beginning have a foundation on which to base rulings.
I don't want to claim all are vague. Many are. If the foundation though is based upon an arbitrary claim of a god and unprovable claims that such god spoke to someone and gave us some rules then I cannot subscribe to that concept because any other concept with arbitrary rules is equaly valid and I wouldn't know which one to choose. And if I can't know which one to choose then that means there is no right or wrong choice, it is arbitrary.

  > By living in society, someone is making choices on the behalf of another regardless of whether that society is religious or secular.
Correct. Some choices are sound and some not. A society needs to make a decision about each rule they impose in isolation and not based upon for example what a single person said was right or wrong. A good set of core rules for a society will naturally emerge after some time completely without religion. You can see this because completely seperated societies come up with same or similar rules but can have completely different religious believes or can be completely secular.

  > We're seeing it today. Look at the rates of depression, suicide, etc. in so called "developed first world" countries and compare them to war torn "third world" countries that are generally religious. Society is in moral and ethical decline, and it worries me how much longer this can go on before some chaotic event will take place.
Life expectancy and quality of life has improved drastically in (not only) western countries over time while at the same time turning more secular. Thanks science! You do not need religion in order to have a well functioning society. The western countries are not perfect - there's a lot wrong with them. Like the racism in the US for example. But there is also a lot wrong with for example middle eastern countries. What's up with all the fighting between religious groups there? I neither live in the west nor the middle east btw and don't think I have a bias because I don't count myself as part of either.

  > Without an authority, the very question of what "good" and "bad" mean becomes meaningless. I recall one atheistic head (might have been Dawkins) who claimed that rape is not good or bad, it just is a phenomenon like the spots on a cheetah. Or Kraus (and others) who said that he could not find a moral justification against incest if there is consent from both sides. 
The concept of good and bad is the concept of morals. Morals can be deduced from logic and does not require religion. "We should do X because Y". The better we can explain Y, the higher the chance of someone subscribing to the logic and doing X. If Y is "because it is written in some book that some dude was told this by god" then many people might rightfully claim that they don't see the reasoning. I really really don't want to live under a religious authority that can impose arbitrary rules on me like that I have to pray five times a day and must not eat pork because I see zero logic behind that. Just to be clear: I don't want to single out Islam here but I am taking it as the example because I am argueing with you and you believe in Islam.

The fact that some atheists said or did something that most people will agree is wrong does not mean all of atheists are wrong in the same way. That's the same mistake the presenter in that video made. There are good atheists and bad atheists. There are good theists and bad theists. You cannot claim from any of these that either secularism or theism is good or bad.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t reply to the question I was asked, so I reply here: How many have I verified? I’m not sure of the #, but I’ve verified much of classical physics, chemistry, astronomical observations, and lots of things in electronics (some of which rely on quantum mechanics) and electromagnetism. But as I said, they question is not whether you or I have personally verified everything, but whether they are verifiable in princ…

> The claims of a holy man are not. How come? The claims of holy men are verified by other holy men.

Man is imperfect. The scientific method is a process that verifies, humans implement and observe the output. With religion, humans "observe" more than they can verify. Religion admits as much that it lacks verification, that's why it has faith.

Religion wants the best of both worlds, saying it is endowed with logic and verification yet when pushed you get the same tired argument about faith and 'gods exist outside logic'. At the same time it wants to say that it doesn't have to participate. Why should your side be special? Why can't I ultimately resort to illogic? Who knows, maybe my atheistic views are derived from a system so abstracted from my intellectual senses that I can validly resort to claiming they may ultimately stem from a time/place far removed from logic also, I just don't claim that it's an anthropomorphic entity like a god.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#424
post #93

If we will never know, then there should be some kind of proof that the beginning of the universe is un-knowledgeable, sort of like Godel's theory of incompleteness. But there is none, so the affirmation is incorrect: We don't know if we will never know.

>then there should be some kind of proof that the beginning of the universe is un-knowledgeable

Sabine literally addresses this in the piece:

>"As I said earlier, you can always do this, because for any evolution law there will be some initial state that will give you the right prediction for today. The problem is that this makes a simple explanation more complicated, so these theories are not scientifically justifiable. They don’t improve the explanatory power of the standard cosmological model. Another way to put it is that all those complicated ideas for how the universe began are unnecessary to explain what we observe. It’s actually worse. Because you might think we just have to wait for better observations and then maybe we’ll see that the current cosmological model is no longer the simplest explanation. But if there was an earlier phase of the universe that was indeed more complicated than the simple initial state that we use today, we couldn’t use the scientific method to decide whether it’s correct or not. The scientific method as we know it just doesn’t cover this case. Science fails!"

There are countless of competing models you can invent that explain the beginning of the universe and everything you see, provided you make them sufficiently complex. The problem is, that's not science.

It's like saying: the standard model explains everything but the beginning. Let's say God caused the universe and then he went away. Technically that's an explanation, it doesn't violate physics as we know it, but it's not scientific. And given that we can't run repeated experiments on the early universe because we only got one, assuming the standard model explains everything but the early universe implies it is out of the reach of science.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my sibling for my first reply. My second reply is that it’s important whether things derived from two different claims actually work. Make two hospitals: one which follows standard Western medical practice, and the other which does not and instead performs prayers over its patients. I can predict which hospital will have better patient outcomes.

> I can predict which hospital will have better patient outcomes. That is quite besided the point. The point being every patient who goes there believes the hospital us doing western blah blah blah... Let me simplyfy it even more. The common mans dependence of "science" is based on beliefs. Just as it was on religion at an older time. That scientific method is more trust worthy, does not make that dependence not base…

Ultimately everything that you can't verify comes down to beliefs which is many things for the common person. But all disciplines aren't equal in this domain. Science began being formalized with the scientific process, it was founded upon principles of rigorous verification. Religion was founded, generally, by a human or humans trying to "verify" the gods' wishes by very abstract and obtuse senses such as 'feelings'. Science may start with feelings or certain intuitions about what should be but then it has to be ran through a proper process that is repeatable and proven no matter how the scientist feels.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#426
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>religious babble Why is religion held in such contempt when there is so much science that is just as much "babble", but held in high regard?

Because the whole premise and foundation of religion is that you ought to believe things absent evidence and without good reasons (that’s what faith is). If you have good reasons to believe something you give the reason; religion does not and should not, especially with its centuries-long history of malice and suppression towards free and scientific thought, deserve any credibility when it comes to matters of facts.

Not really. Non-Abrahamic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. have nothing to do with faith or beliefs. Both Hinduism and Buddhism explicitly allows for atheistic sects within the religion. The religions are mostly concerned with philosophies of life and the nature of reality than worship of Gods based on belief and faith.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, here's my email: lumbdak@gmail.com. If you are so sure then let's discuss it.

You're simply trying to diverge from the discussion when evidence is presented to you, by outright ignoring it. The video I posted presents rational and philosophical evidence (among others) for the existence of God.

I want to hear you own arguments, don't let someone else do the thinking for you!

I think you're just scared, if not email me. : )

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between the two claims is whether they are verifiable.

Tell me, how many scientific "claims" that you rely on a day to day basis, have you verified personally? Or How many such claims can be verified with a single average person's limited resource?

  > Tell me, how many scientific "claims" that you rely on a day to day basis, have you verified personally?
Many. Science claims when I push the brakes in my car I will slow down due to the friction. Seems to be working pretty well so far. How does religion explain it?

You fell into the trap of thinking that each person needs to verify each claim in order to put general trust in science. That's not how it works. If I can pick a random claim and given enough time and effort can verify it with a high chance then I can reasonably be sure the other claims are most likely correct. Not all of them! There are scientific claims that are incorrect. We know because they have been shown to be incorrect. But that doesn't invalidate the rest of the claims. And yes there will be claims that I personally can't verify so I'll have to use my own judgement to trust them or not. Over time someone will emerge to prove them wrong if they are indeed wrong. Unless of course they impossible to falsify like the existance of god. But then I just can ignore that claim if it can't be proven either way - no matter if it's a claim in science or religion.

With religion I can't verify much at all. Can I verify the existance of god? Nope. Can I verify earth was created X thousand years ago? Nope. Can I prove that my prayer will get some result? Nope. So logically my trust in the other religous claims is very low.

We had science classes in school. Physics and Chemistry for example. I remember doing experiments all the time to check if something was really working the way it was claimed. It checked out every single time. We also had Religion classes. I don't remember a single time that we tried to verify a claim. Not even an attempt! How do you build faith in a system full of claims with no evidence? As we kids grew older and developed a stronger independent way of thinking instead of blindly believing what the teacher told us, more and more of us started questioning those claims and were left utterly unsatisfied and ultimately left the religion class and switched to ethics instead.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#429
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're straw manning when you say things like "cares about the sexual life of humans". I highly recommend you watch this to broaden your horizons: https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM

There is a great deal of evidence, philosophically and rationally, for the existence of God. The Big Bang, first theorized by theoretical physicist and Catholic priest Georges Lamaitre, states the universe sprang into existence 13.7b years ago; it was not eternal as previously thought. And we know from observation that everything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence. This suggests that the universe was…

>A powerful, immaterial, timeless force outside of the universet that caused the universe to exist. This points to God.

Holy leap of faith, batman, such a non-sequitur. The former I'd agree is plausible but then you just go headlong into a big assumption or in your case, ironically and paradoxically, you state it as a certainty in a thread about our uncertain universal beginnings. I could run with the former in that perhaps some kind of force outside it caused it but what caused that force? Also there is nothing pointing to this force being some intelligent anthropomorphic entity aware of our existence (as generally believed) other than a few religious texts that, some argue, spawned from other polytheistic religious texts that had entirely different views of the gods.

>There is a great deal of evidence, philosophically and rationally, for the existence of God.

And evidence against if you really want to learn about philosophy in a more well-rounded way. And "rationally"? Many views can be rational which can be pretty subjective, just not logical or true.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the religious viewpoint? Some omnipotent being did it and he cares about the sexual life of humans?! That's bizarre as well, better to just say that at this point we don't know.

You're straw manning when you say things like "cares about the sexual life of humans". I highly recommend you watch this to broaden your horizons: https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM

You love to use the strawman argument yet you use other logical fallacies like argument from authority in presenting the guy in your video, claiming he has this degree or this certification. I almost never bother to point this out but if you're going to call others out for logical fallacies, be aware of your own.
Post reply on HN