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Psychedelic drugs take on depression

nature.com

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Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#21

Post by akuro »

jahnu wrote: post #9

The frequency of these kind of posts followed by anecdotes about how it worked for the commenter (who I believe btw) makes me a little uneasy. Somewhere buried in the discussion eventually is a comment from a relevant professional urging caution in interpreting and reacting to these news reports and anecdotes. Now with something as serious as this I would not at all object to such cautions being placed a bit more pro…

As someone who has taken extremely heavy doses of some very, very potent psychedelics (LSD, DMT, ketamine, mescaline and psilocybin), I am inclined to agree with you. I acknowledge that some people experience great benefits from psychedelics, but the current push to label psychedelics as mental health miracle solution doesn't sit right with me.

Make no mistake: these chemicals are not to be trifled with. People with underlying mental health issues - the poeple who would be most interested in using psychedelics - are at heavy risk of exacerbating their illnesses. Even outside of those special cases, I've seen normal people become heavily affected by bad trips. I simply don't think that there is enough scientific literature on the adverse effects of psychedelics. I also do not like the heavy focus on the "spiritual" aspects that these drugs are believed to confer: are you really transcending, or are you just so heavily intoxicated that you believe you are and no longer have the rational capabilities to convince yourself otherwise?

If I can end on just a little anecdote myself, I personally believe that heavy psychedelic use is especially counterproductive to technical/knowledge-based work. I did barely any work during the year that I was experimenting with these drugs. I was so content with my life as it was that I simply didn't feel the urge to exert myself. I was becoming soft, more predisposed to magical thinking. I believed that psychedelics had revealed unto me truths about how society should be run, how life should be and the true nature of mathematics. But I didn't know a damn thing! I just lost the inclination to actually analyse my ideas (or notions, because they barely qualified as ideas), instead being content to just accept them as they were. After a long stretch of abstinence from these drugs, I realised how worthless most of these notions actually were. I also deeply regretted the amount of time I spent taking these notions seriously, as well as the amount of time I had wasted in thinking that I had actually been experiencing any spiritual truths.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#22

Post by PragmaticPulp »

jahnu wrote: post #9

The frequency of these kind of posts followed by anecdotes about how it worked for the commenter (who I believe btw) makes me a little uneasy. Somewhere buried in the discussion eventually is a comment from a relevant professional urging caution in interpreting and reacting to these news reports and anecdotes. Now with something as serious as this I would not at all object to such cautions being placed a bit more pro…

Your skepticism is warranted. Psychedelics are a hot topic and journalists have been promoting a lot of one-sided articles that make them sound like miracle cures. In clinical practice, ketamine can be useful as part of a recovery and treatment strategy, but it's not really an effective long-term treatment due to the short duration of effects (1-2 weeks post dosing) and the unsustainable nature of the drug (tolerance builds to the anti-depressant effect with repeated dosing).

Some ketamine treatment providers are running very professional and well-staffed businesses (source: had to do a lot of due diligence on the industry for a potential investment) but some of the others are shockingly under-qualified to be administering high doses of ketamine to patients with little evaluation. The regulatory bodies are slowly catching up to some of these providers and instituting stricter regulations. While there is some therapeutic potential, it needs to be delivered in the context of a long-term treatment strategy rather than just giving someone ketamine over and over again (as some unscrupulous providers will gladly do as long as the patient is willing to pay).

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#23

Post by nwienert »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20

A word of caution: Ketamine treatment is far from standardized. Most of the clinical studies I've read aren't using doses that produce profound psychedelic trips. The more professional clinics seem to have settled on dosing regimens that produce mild impairment, but not the full-blown dissociative trips described in many of these articles. Meanwhile, there are a lot of questionable ketamine clinic providers popping u…

This would be far more helpful if you included the dose ranges you allude to, how many you think are required to cause damage, and threw in a few citations.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#24

Post by programmarchy »

mathgladiator wrote: post #12
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

Been there, and I just did a booster. I'm now very happy as I plug along on my project without any negative judgement: https://www.adama-platform.com/2022/07/02/the-path-of-the-mo... I'm doing silly things for silly reasons, and I've never been this happy and at peace. It let me heal from the moral injury of working in big tech for a decade.

Cool project. You seem like a fun and interesting person. I genuinely mean that!

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#25

Post by cypherpunks01 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20

A word of caution: Ketamine treatment is far from standardized. Most of the clinical studies I've read aren't using doses that produce profound psychedelic trips. The more professional clinics seem to have settled on dosing regimens that produce mild impairment, but not the full-blown dissociative trips described in many of these articles. Meanwhile, there are a lot of questionable ketamine clinic providers popping u…

Does anyone know what the therapeutic ranges are at different clinics? I'm currently in IV infusion clinic where they start at 0.5 mg/kg, and increase by 0.1 per session. They are trying to target having a light psychedelic experience during the infusion, as they've found that gives the desired antidepressant effects later on, but not so much so as to be really far out, or to be frightening, totally out of body, or loss of consciousness at all.

I'm told the max therapeutic dose they administer is somewhere between 1-2mg/kg, and I believe anesthetic effects come on somewhere in between 2-4mg/kg? Anesthesia doses are administered much faster, so I'm sure that it's not a direct comparison.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#26

Post by colechristensen »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

Here's a reminder:

"Depression" is just a label put on a cluster of symptoms to make diagnoses consistent across medical providers. It is definitely not a singular condition with one cause and a consistent treatment across patients. It is likely a multitude of conditions which will respond differently to many treatments.

Some people with a depression diagnosis will be very disappointed with ketamine treatment.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#27

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #15
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

> but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It's important to note that this is an atypically long duration. In clinical studies, the duration of effects is more around 1-2 weeks. It's possible that the overall experience (including surviving an accident and getting a "second lease on life") was the trigger for 4-6 months of improvement, not just the medication you were given once. That's…

It definitely wasn't because of the accident, my life is ruined lol and at the time I was in horrific pain. But I can accept the timeline could be non-typical.

It could also be the huge dose, the studies I've seen use lighter doses.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#28

Post by ekzy »

akuro wrote: post #21
jahnu wrote: post #9

The frequency of these kind of posts followed by anecdotes about how it worked for the commenter (who I believe btw) makes me a little uneasy. Somewhere buried in the discussion eventually is a comment from a relevant professional urging caution in interpreting and reacting to these news reports and anecdotes. Now with something as serious as this I would not at all object to such cautions being placed a bit more pro…

As someone who has taken extremely heavy doses of some very, very potent psychedelics (LSD, DMT, ketamine, mescaline and psilocybin), I am inclined to agree with you. I acknowledge that some people experience great benefits from psychedelics, but the current push to label psychedelics as mental health miracle solution doesn't sit right with me. Make no mistake: these chemicals are not to be trifled with. People with…

Thanks for sharing your experience. Most stories I read online about psychedelics are overwhelmingly positive, so much that it feels like you’d be missing out on life if you didn’t try it. It’s good to read your kind of stories too.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#29

Post by birdyrooster »

mathgladiator wrote: post #12
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

Been there, and I just did a booster. I'm now very happy as I plug along on my project without any negative judgement: https://www.adama-platform.com/2022/07/02/the-path-of-the-mo... I'm doing silly things for silly reasons, and I've never been this happy and at peace. It let me heal from the moral injury of working in big tech for a decade.

What is your moral injury? I admit I have guilt from working in big tech too, but how did it affect your mental health?
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