Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate • Hacker News Board

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#561

Post by ericmay » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #560

ericmay wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It could be intentional that a government, organization or pharmaceutical / chemical company is knowingly sterilizing / making it more difficult to conceive. This could either be through a willingness to look the other way (i.e. a side effect) or intentional (North Korea for instance may do some sabotage or government is intentionally pushing population reduction) For others reading, remember that no evidence is be…

> You've provided no basis for this claim that Planned Parenthood provides birth control, abortions, or other drugs as part of a US program to intentionally reduce population growth. Any funding of birth control or abortions by definition will slow population growth. Further and specifically in regard to planned parenthood > Sanger was so intent on her mission to advocate for birth control that she chose to align her…

What you said was that this was a US program to intentionally reduce population growth. I see no basis for that claim. Feel free to retract that claim or provide actual evidence.

You can certainly suggest that a result of family planning activities such as birth control, condoms, abortion, or abstinence result in slower or no population growth, but I do not see this as the primary purpose of these tools/activities, which is to enable people to decide when they are ready to have children.

This is the important point from your link, which naturally you took out a single quote out of context either out of malice and bad intentions, or because you simply didn't read further. I'll assume the latter.

> Planned Parenthood believes that all people — of every race, religion, gender identity, ability, immigration status, and geography — are full human beings with the right to determine their own future and decide, without coercion or judgement, whether and when to have children.

> Margaret Sanger’s racism and belief in eugenics are in direct opposition to Planned Parenthood’s mission. Planned Parenthood denounces Margaret Sanger’s belief in eugenics. Further, Planned Parenthood denounces the history and legacy of anti-Blackness in gynecology and the reproductive rights movement, and the mistreatment that continues against Black, Indigenous, and other people of color in this country.

The fact that they call out their history (which somehow still lacks being a US program) and are explicit about what they stand for and what they don't stand for is admirable and honest. You cherry-picking a quote isn't.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#562

Post by anon291 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

jxramos wrote: post #348

Danieru wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're at 3 kids, planning for 4. I agree on the important of fellow kids at church. The older kids have an incredible time playing with our younger kids. Its such a joy to watch. Bonus is we live in Japan and get to enjoy the surplus of an aging/retiring society. Cars are cheap, houses are cheap. We got a mortgage for a new build house as two newly weds at 25 years old, no down payment as is common in this bank-depos…

What a great slogan. Say no when society suggests a silly idea. I love it. Fruitless endeavor, no thank you. Sometimes I day dream about our kids perceptions of things in the future never having been exposed to the constant barrage of advertising conditioning them to buy buy buy and find satisfaction in material crap. I’m excited to see the sort of people they will become, there’s already great excitement at their gr…

People are always surprised that we have no television in our household, and our consumption of media is limited to pre-purchased movies on particular occasions (sickness, holidays, etc)

You don't have to engage with everything society tells you you need. You can just... ignore it. In my experience, many people speak highly of freedom, yet don't behave freely themselves.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#563

Post by anon291 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #236

anon291 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is easy. Middle easterners want kids for cultural and religious reasons. I know any talk of religion and/or culture is verboten in modern American discourse but it's a significant factor in most the world. Yet it makes most Americans uncomfortable

>Middle easterners want kids for cultural and religious reasons. Would middle eastern women want just as many kids if they had the same freedom and opportunities as women in developed countries?

Qatar is a pretty developed country, and has a higher than average female workforce participation. This is not to say it has perfect freedom for anyone. I honestly can't answer your question. These things remain to be seen.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#564

Post by anon291 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

octobus2021 wrote: post #168

waterlaw wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Their idea was to reduce the population until you reach a number low enough that is viable for the ecosystem. The population would then be "maintained" at a stable level. Most people would not be able to afford children. You could make child-rearing unaffordable enough to require government assistance. Then that assistance could be limited by quota. There's a lot of things that could happen in the future. We do…

If a woman has a child in her 50s she will spend her 50s (and maybe part of her 60s) taking care of the toddler and then raise them to be 10 years old. These are not easy years I can tell you that having gone through that more than once. And I was in my 30s and early 40s. Then, when she's in her mid-to-late 60s she'll have to deal with a moody and irrational teenager and try to make sure he/she won't screw up so bad…

We had our first kid in our early twenties, and by the end of the first two years, I couldn't for the life of me understand how anyone older than 30 can have their first child. Toddlers and babies are incredibly hard on the knees, back, shoulders, and your entire body. They're rough, active, and constantly demand various physical actions that will quickly exhaust anybody.

It's so strange having parents in our neighborhood two or three decades older than we were. It must be really hard.

I'm looking forward to my fifties where my eldest children are past college, hopefully giving me grandchildren to play with. I highly encourage young parenthood. It gets increasingly harder. The money part which so many get hung up on is easy. Babies are incredibly cheap, and your income has 18 years to grow.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#565

Post by rsync » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

labster wrote: post #77

alcover wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear I agree with you. Grossly, south korean couples each makes 1 child. So its population is going 1/2. To correct that and return to previous level, every couple formed among those children would have to bear 4 children. I think they won't and it looks grim.

Why do you assume the current population is the correct one? There’s a reasonable argument to be made that humans are over the Earth’s carrying capacity nearly everywhere, and are causing environmental and social damage to maintain the current size. It is quite normal in ecology to see crashes and recovery in the event of overpopulation. If we assume humans are biological organisms, it all seems pretty normal.

Just a reminder …

“Carrying capacity” is a technical term that implies, among other things, that no further population growth can occur.

It doesn’t just mean “too many” or “more than we’d prefer”.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#566

Post by ryanSrich » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:45 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #541

ryanSrich wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that’s not exactly how it works. We don’t have a marketplace plan, so our insurance has no responsibility to pay for anything really. The link you shared says this. “All Marketplace health plans and many other plans must cover the following list of preventive services for children without charging you a copayment or coinsurance. This is true even if you haven’t met your yearly deductible.” Maximum out o…

By purchasing insurance not compliant with marketplace regulations, one chooses to pay less in premiums in exchange for accepting the risk of paying more at point/time of care. >Maximum out of pocket only kicks in once you’ve hit the deductible on 2+ family members, at least for our plan. So for us, the max is $20k. Out of pocket maximum has nothing to do with deductible. Copays/coinsurance “kick in” after deductible…

> note that a “Marketplace” (or ACA complaint) plan explicitly transfers wealth from young and/or healthy to old and/or unhealthy, where healthy and unhealthy mean “does not need healthcare” and “needs healthcare”. So by choosing to go with a non Marketplace plan, they are placing their bets on not needing healthcare…which is probably not a winning bet for people birthing and raising young children.

The unfortunate reality is that paying $2000/month to an employer managed health plan is cheaper than going through the federal government ($5,000/month for a family of 4 the last I checked). If marketplace plans had lower premiums and lower deductibles that would be the ideal option.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#567

Post by citrusybread » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

jxramos wrote: post #352

greaterthan3 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it's both men and women in Israel could be significant. I heard stories about people meeting their romantic partners in the army during the mandatory service.

Yah I could see that. Opposite sexes commingling during the strength of youth required for military duties and which also happens to coincide with peak fertility. I’m convinced that peak fertility and sexual urges during our 20s is no coincidence—-it’s our bodies screaming a large signal at us that this is the time. That strength and ability to pull all nighters sure comes in handy caring for a newborn. Taking on suc…

something unfortunate to keep in mind is your emotional intelligence at that age. it's clear an 18 year old is not as mentally prepared as even a 28 year old, let alone 30+ when your brain development has really hit its peak.

it's all fine and dandy to think people should be parents in their early 20s, but think about where you were at 20. did you stay with the same person? I think if you ran surveys in the west, you'd find a disproportionate amount who either didn't have anyone, or who broke up not long after. I like to think I'm a much kinder, calmer, and more self-aware person than I was at 18, or even 25.

at 30 you might be a more tired but hopefully at that point you've:

(1) dated enough to know what to look for in a partner; (2) have found that partner who is a good match; (3) have progressed enough in your work that you're less at risk at big economic suffering

I think people who try and save up in advance of kids are a little nutty - focus on your retirement, and emergency fund, they can borrow money. it's almost never an advantageous position for it to be paid off.

3 can definitely be solved by good policy. But I think it's just foolishness to suggest that people can start having kids whenever. At least in my experience and my peers' experience, finding the person who likes you enough to consider that is the blocker by a long shot. Everything else can be solved with money.

by the way, comments earlier about Israeli military service were interesting -- it makes sense to me as an accelerant in bonding, same as some university experiences. That was however not my experience in university undergrad...

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#568

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #566

lotsofpulp wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By purchasing insurance not compliant with marketplace regulations, one chooses to pay less in premiums in exchange for accepting the risk of paying more at point/time of care. >Maximum out of pocket only kicks in once you’ve hit the deductible on 2+ family members, at least for our plan. So for us, the max is $20k. Out of pocket maximum has nothing to do with deductible. Copays/coinsurance “kick in” after deductible…

> note that a “Marketplace” (or ACA complaint) plan explicitly transfers wealth from young and/or healthy to old and/or unhealthy, where healthy and unhealthy mean “does not need healthcare” and “needs healthcare”. So by choosing to go with a non Marketplace plan, they are placing their bets on not needing healthcare…which is probably not a winning bet for people birthing and raising young children. The unfortunate r…

I would not believe an ACA compliant plan healthcare.gov was $5k for a family of 4.

Here is NJ’s prices, which is a relatively high cost state:

https://www.state.nj.us/dobi/division_insurance/ihcseh/ihcra...

For a silver level Horizon BCBS plan (Omnia Silver HSA, pretty broad coverage, never seen a provider not in network), you would be looking at $300 to $700 per person, calculated using the age rating factors at the bottom. And I know from experience the max OOP was $10k or a little less.

Even if you were older parents, the total would come in under $3k per month for a plan that covered 70% of expected healthcare expense, which is what qualifies it to be labeled silver.

I know priced in California were not too much more than NJ. There is a Kaiser pdf showing a detailed breakdown of premiums nationwide, but pretty much everywhere scales from $300 to $1k per month from age 20 to 65 for a silver level plan.

And this is all for buying via healthcare.gov. I would bet all big employers provide far more subsidized ACA compliant health insurance, so if you are employed, I would budget for employers to pay 70% of the premium, so individuals would pay 30% of $2k for family coverage = $700 per month and be subject to $5k per year deductible, and $10k oop max per year.

Basically, you can expect to insure your whole family for unlimited (in network and out of network emergency) healthcare expense for $20k per year if you work for a big company, and $40k per year if you are paying yourself, maybe $45k if you’re over 50 years old.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#569

Post by swat535 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

TbobbyZ wrote: post #92

I have 3 kids with one due at the end of the year. All are from the same woman and we’ve known each other since being teenagers. We are planning to have 5-7 total. They really add a richness to life. It’s fun to see people stare when we go out.

My fiance (soon to be wife) and I are both devout Catholics, having children is a gift for us.

We won't be using contraception after we are married, only NFP (or abstain) and if she gets pregnant, then it's a cause for celebration by both the community and our families. We have average jobs and no one in our extended family is rich either, yet they all had many kids.

The truth is that having children requires a lot of sacrifice and not many people are up for it. Who could blame them? outside of strong cultural / religious boundaries, you will spend the majority of your time climbing a corporate ladder, going for a bigger degree, constantly thinking about retirement and finances,.. etc.

However, I personally think that no matter which one of those summits you climb, it will fade away. So for us, unless we will literally be out on the street due to financial stress, we are looking forward to having kids, who could deny such grace?

Anyway, just wanted to throw out a different point of view into the mix here.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#570

Post by Balgair » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

simonjgreen wrote: post #344

nunb wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because it comes through as tall claims based on anecdata? But I've lived in Europe, America, Asia, ME & Australia (also visited every SEA country) and the prevalence of male feminization & rich-people obesity (esp central adiposity) in certain regions is quite staggering. And almost every single person I know personally with difficulty conceiving (various races, various countries, various diagnoses includin…

Downvotes: I'm so glad you asked, as I often wonder the same on "you're being downvotes because" comments. Eventually a post goes grey, but prior to that I have not been able to spot an indicator of downvotes happening. And I do have the downvote button.

There is a karma threshold for downvoting, you likely haven't reached it yet. It's in the FAQ.

However, as to HN culture, typically anyone complaining about downvotes will be further downvoted. It usually does not matter what the rest of the comment says, if you complain about downvotes, HN will give you a lot more of them. I like to think that it is a way for the community to remind individuals that these are all imaginary points anyway and to not be attached to one's karma number anymore than one is attached to the number of the nearest speed limit sign.