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Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

bloomberg.com

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Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#191

Post by Danieru »

anon291 wrote: post #116
TbobbyZ wrote: post #92

I have 3 kids with one due at the end of the year. All are from the same woman and we’ve known each other since being teenagers. We are planning to have 5-7 total. They really add a richness to life. It’s fun to see people stare when we go out.

Yeah at our church the average is probably 4-5. There are dozens of families like this. Were planning 5-6 like you. Events with all the kids are lovely and many of the adults who grew up in this church know the other adults because they all used to be kids here once. Great community and a lovely life.

We're at 3 kids, planning for 4. I agree on the important of fellow kids at church. The older kids have an incredible time playing with our younger kids. Its such a joy to watch.

Bonus is we live in Japan and get to enjoy the surplus of an aging/retiring society. Cars are cheap, houses are cheap. We got a mortgage for a new build house as two newly weds at 25 years old, no down payment as is common in this bank-deposit-surplus country. Society is pretty broken in lots of ways, but with family you can side step the foolishness. The important skill is to say no when society suggests a silly idea.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#192

Post by klipt »

grog454 wrote: post #156
throwaway_4ever wrote: post #12

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

> Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. There's a scary implication. If having to support more elderly causes one to produce less offspring, we have a positive feedback loop resulting in population collapse.

Or the young people will just decide to abandon their elderly to cheap low quality nursing homes. Isn't that how it works in many countries?

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#193

Post by brnt »

remarkEon wrote: post #68
brnt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, society is not preparing itself for new economic realities (many I speak to do not understand this particular one at all), but, has it occurred to you that this is very good news in terms of livability on planet earth and our continued existence? Sure, humans will adapt but only when it's too late, as usual, but at least this is a change in positive direction. Forever growth is nonsensical, and this isn't t…

The only way your hypothesis is plausible (ignoring everything else that’s weird and troubling about it) is if everyone on the planet decides to go along with it. Not every society has this problem of low fertility, and those who own the future are the ones who show up.

Fertily reduction correlates strongly with increased prosperity worldwide. Policy making and cultural attitudes play a role too, but the correlation is uncontested and rather evident.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#194

Post by Kon-Peki »

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #53
Kon-Peki wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surrogacy will be the next big thing. Women in poorer countries will birth the children for wealthier nations. So you think women in poorer countries are willing to "pre-sell" their children? That's insanely absurd, and an absolute human rights violation if forced. No. This will not happen.

You need to look up what surrogacy means. The surrogate women is doing the "pregnancy" part, with prior agreement and IVF from a different couple.

> You need to look up what surrogacy means

Thanks, I am familiar with the meaning.

It doesn’t matter if someone provided the fertilized egg. Woman A has a child and then it becomes part of Family B, sometimes with money changing hands and/or the threat of lawsuits or jail if Woman A has a change of heart.

The only way this can possibly be morally acceptable is in very carefully vetted on-off situations AND no penalty or pressure for a changed mind.

There is no morally-defensible way to do this “at scale”. Please do more research if you have even the slightest doubt.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#196

Post by tstrimple »

jackling wrote: post #14
throwaway_4ever wrote: post #12

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

"our future", last time I check, Pakistan wasn't invading any foreign territory, aside from some normal border disputes it's problems are usually within it's own borders. This seems like paranoia that the "others" will come and ruin our civilization. If Pakistan, and other countries like India and China, continues to modernize, eventually the population should stable out and historically that comes with better rights…

> eventually the population should stable out and historically that comes with better rights for all.

I'm not convinced you don't have those two reversed. Intuitively, to me, population stability comes after better rights for all.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#197

Post by sacrosancty »

ckylee wrote: post #188

Korean politics is blaming feminism for this phenomenon, but it's really a mix of all the issues in the comments, as well as sexual crime injustices (bare minimal sentencing for sex crimes) and women afraid of bringing a child into such society. It's just a natural evolutionary reaction.

Has there ever been a society in history that was so bad that "women afraid of bringing a child into such society." was a thing? In the very short term, sure, but forever?

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#199

Post by ipnon »

What would convince me to have kids now?

1. Financial security, I can barely afford putting food in my own mouth let alone a wife and baby.

2. Community support, having a kid would mean no more working on my startup in spare time, which also means less money.

I don’t feel like I have a village to raise a child with, I’m a rootless cosmopolitan floating about the planet from one yuppie opportunity to the next. It’s not really satisfying and I’ll likely pull the trigger soon anyway.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#200

Post by tstrimple »

nashashmi wrote: post #105
tonmoy wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that child death rates were considerably higher even 50 years ago in all of those countries.

People keep saying high child death rates mean people have more children. But i have yet to find any proofs or research paper for this. What I really find is that as people's expectations of better living go up (not living expenses per se), then people have less children.

At first I disagreed, but after reconsidering I think absence of other evidence the increased child death rate and child birth rate are coincidental. I haven't seen data actually supporting the evidence that more children were born because more children died. I think it's plausible that the increased rights and health of people within our society both lead to decreases in child births and child deaths, but I've seen nothing to suggest that the death rate is causal to the birth rate.
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