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Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

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Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#491

Post by sidewndr46 »

thinkingemote wrote: post #290
FBISurveillance wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies for ranting but this topic resonates too much. Housing prices are 9x salary vs 4.5x salary in the 70s and it takes a while to save up. Personal data point: it took me winning an IPO lottery to start thinking about having kids for real. Having kids while earning minimal wage? Terrifying, especially in the US where getting yourself or your kid sick could bankrupt you in the blink of an eye - and if you want m…

If we look back at say mortality rates and poverty and health, the people in the past had it much worse off. They didn't wait to have babies.

If look back at the society of the past from where I come from, this is the same society that gave us Jim Crow. Before that, chattel slavery.

Not really sure what I'm going to be learning from them about raising children in the 21st century.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#492

Post by [deleted] »

missedthecue wrote: post #386
creakingstairs wrote: post #311

I've been meaning to write about this for a while, but this does not surprise me in the least. The life in Korea is way too competitive and stressful. The hellscape begins in pre-school and primary school where parents make kids go to private school AFTER school, often till late evenings. This progressively gets worse and worse until university. In my father's generation, people could relax after getting into univers…

Who is renting all the apartments in Seoul if every smart person with a perfect GPA and 52 hour a week job can't afford it?

[deleted]

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#493

Post by balfirevic »

creakingstairs wrote: post #417
missedthecue wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is renting all the apartments in Seoul if every smart person with a perfect GPA and 52 hour a week job can't afford it?

As other people have mentioned, its about not being able to afford to buy a house to raise kids in. I do want to also mention though, a unique Korean system called "Jeonse", which is a large deposit that is 50-80% of the property value. After putting in the deposit, you can live there on yearly basis without paying rent. This system has been and is being used as property ladder for young families (as they don't have…

Barely anyone I know was raised in a house, or has a house today (but rather apartments). It's very weird seeing this as some kind of condition for having a family.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#494

Post by d0100 »

legutierr wrote: post #421
adrianN wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other difference now is that we're pretty close to wiping out crucial ecosystems like the Amazon rainforest and show no signs of taking climate change as seriously as we should.

I was downvoted in my other comment, so I think I should explain what I meant. My point was that there is no “we” when we speak of humanity as a broad aggregate this way. There are specific constituencies—for instance, Bolsenaro and his supporters in Brazil—who are blocking the policies that most of us want to implement to stop climate change. It’s not “we” who are the problem, it’s “them”. If you blame humanity in t…

Leave it to "first world" countries that already killed off all their nature to grandstand on another country with still virgin land...

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#495

Post by acdha »

amrocha wrote: post #288
acdha wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Declining birth rates have nothing to do with oppressing women. I think the point was the opposite: countries with limited respect and opportunities for women have higher birth rates because women have less control over whether they have children and if good careers aren’t an option anyway there’s less opportunity cost to staying home with a child.

I know, I'm saying the original point is wrong. People stopped having children because raising children costs a ton, is a lot of work, and they don't have the financial means to do so while supporting themselves. It has nothing to do with how oppressed women are.

I think your problem is that you’re framing this as a contradiction when it’s actually the same point from another angle: in more egalitarian societies, women say that’s a lot of work and choose not to have as many (or any) children.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#496

Post by TwoFerMaggie »

creakingstairs wrote: post #311

I've been meaning to write about this for a while, but this does not surprise me in the least. The life in Korea is way too competitive and stressful. The hellscape begins in pre-school and primary school where parents make kids go to private school AFTER school, often till late evenings. This progressively gets worse and worse until university. In my father's generation, people could relax after getting into univers…

> you have tired and jaded people without a fun childhood

Man this hits really hard because I spent my first 20 years growing up in China... Good thing is that now I'm in a much less authoritarian place with a job that has decent work-life balance. Have been trying to cultivate some hobbies in the past few years, feels like I've been trying to reclaim the childhood I never had.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#497

Post by d0100 »

decafninja wrote: post #282
nunb wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard the most bizarre & unexpected opinion first-hand from an obgyn. Prior to this I was firmly in the nurture camp of nature/nurture, but this obgyn's opinion on adoptions shocked me out of my complacency. I am hoping Sapolsky's latest book may shed some light on the subject without the Wade/Murray "bell curve" implications.

Curious as to what you mean. I think you're implying that the personality makeup of the adopted child that comes from his/her biological parents is not to be underestimated? Is that really a questionable or controversial topic though? The thought has occurred to me. I would describe both my wife and I as being stable mannered and not prone to rash decisions. Odds are a biological child of ours might resemble that per…

Some wild and crazy behavior comes by because of genetic "features" that translate into mental issues

But I do believe nurture can help to prevent or exacerbate those issues

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#498

Post by acdha »

988747 wrote: post #390
orwin wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean countries like France ? Just implement a repartition retirement system and small incentive per child which diminish after the third, boom, 2.1 fertility rate for most of the 21rst century. At least for now, the destruction of our retirement system and our current trend towards capitalization is already killing our fertility rate, and the idiots pushing this will once again realize this too late, because this…

> boom, 2.1 fertility rate for most of the 21rst century. This has nothing to do with the policies you mention. It has everything to do with the fact that the most popular name for newly born boys is now "Muhammed" (or some other spelling variant of it).

It's not that simple: France appears to have higher birth rates even if you exclude the children of immigrants, which does suggest that other policies factor into it:

https://www.cairn-int.info/journal-population-and-societies-...

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#499

Post by konart »

Sharlin wrote: post #453
agilob wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about 4 days work week for adults, but no one is talking about 40 hours work week for kids. 7 hours of school, 3 hours of homework, then karate, piano, swimming and football on weekends.

If those karate, piano, swimming and football are intense enough to be counted as "work" rather than leisure, then something is wrong. Are hobbies not a thing anymore?

Those are not hobbies in this case though. I've been attending music school (violin) for 7 years (7-14 y.o.) and only by the time I hit 30 I reasised the problem with the whole system.

Teachers (and to some point parents) expect you to invest as much in this music school as you invest (at least expected to) in your regular school.

And I never though about it this way. For me this was always a place to escape most of my classmates and have fun if possible. Or just relax. "Why are all those people are shoutin at me? Can't we all just have a good time?"

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#500

Post by lettergram »

jasonfarnon wrote: post #324
jdkoeck wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, all I have is the constant drum of “the world is over populated” by leaders around the world to back up my reasoning for potentially being intentional. You might want to consult with a professional, that’s paranoid thinking.

A quick google search leads me to an NYT article: "In the last several days, the British government’s environmental adviser declared it “irresponsible” to have more than two children. And Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, asserted that including contraception in the stimulus package could reduce government spending." If China wanted to reduce population in 2022, would it announce a mandatory one-child-policy? O…

> So OPs remark doesn't sound very paranoid to me. It sounds unjustified--I can think of a million innocent reasons fertility is decreasing.

For the record I actually agree with this. I think it’s most likely not intentional. That said I wouldn’t be surprised if it was intentional [as there is precedent] (which is what I initially said).

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