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Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

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Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#281

Post by Thorrez »

faeriechangling wrote: post #76
throwaway_4ever wrote: post #12

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

Talking about “developed countries” here, not SK specifically. Is declining fertility really such a societal and evolutionary danger when we’re talking 1.4-1.5? If you think of us all as one race, the human race, the fact that a few corners of the world are declining in fertility is arguably an environmental victory that could soften some crises’s in the future. We are like 99.9% genetically similar, why risk gutting…

>The whole contention that it’s terrible that high birthrate countries are so much more feminist than low birthrate ones

I think there's a typo there.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#282

Post by decafninja »

nunb wrote: post #263
nxm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much respect to those who adopt, but bloodlines matter

I heard the most bizarre & unexpected opinion first-hand from an obgyn. Prior to this I was firmly in the nurture camp of nature/nurture, but this obgyn's opinion on adoptions shocked me out of my complacency. I am hoping Sapolsky's latest book may shed some light on the subject without the Wade/Murray "bell curve" implications.

Curious as to what you mean. I think you're implying that the personality makeup of the adopted child that comes from his/her biological parents is not to be underestimated? Is that really a questionable or controversial topic though?

The thought has occurred to me. I would describe both my wife and I as being stable mannered and not prone to rash decisions. Odds are a biological child of ours might resemble that personality.

I also acknowledge a child we adopt may have had biological parents with very different personalities than us, and therefore the child may be very different from us in personality.

At the same time, I don't believe that just because the child's biological parents might have been wild and crazy, the child is doomed to the same fate even with our care.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#283

Post by nunb »

aszantu wrote: post #244
decafninja wrote: post #106

My wife and I are Korean-American, albeit with many ties to our country of origin. Something I've noticed is that many couples that do want a child have a very difficult time conceiving. People are having kids at a later age on average, but even younger couples seem to have a hard time. Various gynecological disorders seem to be very common too - fibroids, endometriosis, adenomyosis, amongst others, all of which affe…

if you're eating a lot of plants, look into phyto-hormones, those might be preventing fertility. There are a few anecdotal stories from the carnivore/keto forums, that fertility came back after cutting out carbs. Edit: Some Artificial hormones are found in plastic, rates go up when it's recycled plastics.

Disclaimer: I am quite firmly in that camp now, although at first I considered them all nutters. Some thing has been driving global ill-health in our post-disease world (excluding viruses) from 1920 onwards... imho there's clearly a complex ætiology with factors such as:

- carbohydrate (especially fructose) vs animal-protein/-fat consumption

- types of fat (our bodies only contain certain kinds)

- xenœstrogen & hormones of all types not just phyto-œstrogens

- Vitamin D, Magnesium, ferritin, pre-eclampsia, anæmia (lack of hæme iron consumption)

- more recently the whole statin-cholesterol debacle, Goodhart's law in action

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#284

Post by random314 »

nunb wrote: post #263
nxm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much respect to those who adopt, but bloodlines matter

I heard the most bizarre & unexpected opinion first-hand from an obgyn. Prior to this I was firmly in the nurture camp of nature/nurture, but this obgyn's opinion on adoptions shocked me out of my complacency. I am hoping Sapolsky's latest book may shed some light on the subject without the Wade/Murray "bell curve" implications.

What was the opinion?

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#285

Post by amrocha »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #86
amrocha wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Declining birth rates have nothing to do with oppressing women. Worker exploitation, poor social safety net, and wealth disparity are squarely to blame.

When all these things were worse, 100 years ago, people had more kids than they do today.

We're not trying to do back to how things were 100 years ago so I don't see how that's relevant

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#286

Post by visarga »

onepointsixC wrote: post #66
gumby wrote: post #19

What's the harm? By the end of the century robots will be doing most of the work anyway. People can concentrate on the things that matter to them instead.

Robots don't buy products or services, meaning your revenues are shrinking. Meanwhile growing numbers of elderly citizens who require care are going to be supported by an ever smaller pool of young workers who will be overworked instead of starting families of their own. You have a spiral of death which is likely unavoidable.

Robots are not free yet. Even if energy was free and we had automation that could produce any product so labor is free, we still need raw materials that might be hard to come by or conflictual in origin.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#287

Post by nunb »

random314 wrote: post #284
nunb wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard the most bizarre & unexpected opinion first-hand from an obgyn. Prior to this I was firmly in the nurture camp of nature/nurture, but this obgyn's opinion on adoptions shocked me out of my complacency. I am hoping Sapolsky's latest book may shed some light on the subject without the Wade/Murray "bell curve" implications.

What was the opinion?

adoptee turned to hard drugs (opiods) in his teens. the opinion was: what do you expect, the father was an addict too. at the time I was shocked as I was so firmly in the nurture camp.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#288

Post by amrocha »

acdha wrote: post #79
amrocha wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Declining birth rates have nothing to do with oppressing women. Worker exploitation, poor social safety net, and wealth disparity are squarely to blame.

> Declining birth rates have nothing to do with oppressing women. I think the point was the opposite: countries with limited respect and opportunities for women have higher birth rates because women have less control over whether they have children and if good careers aren’t an option anyway there’s less opportunity cost to staying home with a child.

I know, I'm saying the original point is wrong. People stopped having children because raising children costs a ton, is a lot of work, and they don't have the financial means to do so while supporting themselves. It has nothing to do with how oppressed women are.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#289

Post by StanislavPetrov »

somenameforme wrote: post #252
FBISurveillance wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies for ranting but this topic resonates too much. Housing prices are 9x salary vs 4.5x salary in the 70s and it takes a while to save up. Personal data point: it took me winning an IPO lottery to start thinking about having kids for real. Having kids while earning minimal wage? Terrifying, especially in the US where getting yourself or your kid sick could bankrupt you in the blink of an eye - and if you want m…

I agree with you on the latter point, but I want to also point something out on the former. Many people who are of no "proper" means to do so continue to have children. And they make it work, even if it may be uncomfortable and require sacrifice. So the issue is not one of finances, but priorities. Winning an IPO lottery being the baseline where you feel comfortable for having children doesn't mean that such is the i…

>Many people who are of no "proper" means to do so continue to have children. And they make it work, even if it may be uncomfortable and require sacrifice.

Unfortunately many people who are not properly equipped to raise children (financially, temperamentally or otherwise) have lots of children and don't make it work. The result is a permanent underclass and a serious crime problem in many of our major cities.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#290

Post by thinkingemote »

FBISurveillance wrote: post #206
throwaway_4ever wrote: post #12

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

Apologies for ranting but this topic resonates too much. Housing prices are 9x salary vs 4.5x salary in the 70s and it takes a while to save up. Personal data point: it took me winning an IPO lottery to start thinking about having kids for real. Having kids while earning minimal wage? Terrifying, especially in the US where getting yourself or your kid sick could bankrupt you in the blink of an eye - and if you want m…

If we look back at say mortality rates and poverty and health, the people in the past had it much worse off.

They didn't wait to have babies.

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