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What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

nytimes.com

31–40 of 42 posts

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#31
post #27

As a law student I think the article misses a few points. 1) The case method is a great way to teach concepts. Working with hypotheticals and seeing how rules interact is extremely useful, and something I greatly missed in my engineering education where I spent 4 years just watching some TA do derivations on the board. 2) Schools don't teach outdated law as the article seems to imply. Sure you read some old cases in…

> "1) The case method is a great way to teach concepts. Working with hypotheticals and seeing how rules interact is extremely useful, and something I greatly missed in my engineering education where I spent 4 years just watching some TA do derivations on the board."

Agreed. The case method would arguably address many of the problems raised in this article. The problem is not the case method itself, but what is being taught by the case method.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#32
post #21

While the article makes good points, I disagree with its fundamental premise that the case system is a bad way to prepare students for the practice of law. The article offers what is really an academic critique of law school education. In effect, it says, "wouldn't it be so much better if we could just dispense with all that abstract case-law analysis and get on with teaching prospective lawyers how to draft contract…

With appropriate replacement of nouns, similar arguments can and are made around CS education in the US right now.

All the same considerations apply: theory vs. practice, writing capability, principles vs. application, never-ending desire for more practical capabilities on the part of new grads.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#33
The article seems to be really pushing that law review articles are obscure things that no one put another professor of law could understand or care about, but as a CS student who's taken one course in ethics at a very un-humanities university, all those titles were perfectly understandable.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#34

The most shocking thing about the article was the $575 million that is spent on law review research! Talk about a different government subsidy! I know basic science research is important but academic law research? Exhibit #1 (the second item under "Articles" (NSFW, depending on where you work)) http://www.cardozolawreview.com/index.php?option=com_content...

Well in one sense this research is government subsidized, because it's paid for through tuition that is paid for through government-backed student loans. On the other hand, the government recoups that money so the actual subsidy is much smaller than the $575 million figure.

That being said, I think there is one very salient aspect to the whole law review system, which is that it engenders participation by a much broader cross-section of lawyers than is the case in other academic fields. Law reviews publish students and practitioners in addition to professors. You see articles not just about abstract theory, but the mechanics of some new tax provision. Even at big law firms some partners take the time to publish, not just articles but books. This is far better than say CS academia, where most articles are math-wankery that everyone ignores.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#35
post #28

I see something very similar happening in many Computer Science papers and the areas in which some CS academics have chosen to focus their time. It's not as bad as what goes on in Law School, certainly, but there is definitely a divide between what is important to industry (which is often much more about engineering) and academics (who need to publish something which will get them tenure, which means it has to pass m…

I think that, for CS, this is actually a good thing: "industry" in general tends to be more interested in short-term gain and things which are immediately practical--they are creating the technology of tomorrow. Academics, on the other hand, are not bound by this; they can look into creating the technology of the far future.

Another important difference is that CS research also goes on in industry, resulting in more diversity. There is no fundamental problem underlying the whole field--for every researcher working on things you find useless for industry, there are probably several working on things which are useful.

Finally, this may be due to my university being more pragmatic than some, but most of the research going on that I've heard about is actually immediately practical. The single largest issue a ton of professors seem to be working on is parallelism and distributed computing, which is indubitably extremely important to industry right now. Of course, I could also only be seeing this because most of the professors that teach my classes or that I've talked to are affiliated with similar labs.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#36

The article seems to be really pushing that law review articles are obscure things that no one put another professor of law could understand or care about, but as a CS student who's taken one course in ethics at a very un-humanities university, all those titles were perfectly understandable.

His examples aren't even all in law, to make it worse!

For example, he mentions a paper entitled "What Is Wrong With Kamm's and Scanlon's Arguments Against Taurek" from The Journal of Ethics & Social Philosophy as an example of ivory-tower lawyering. But this paper is written by Tyler Doggett, a philosophy professor. He isn't even a borderline law/philosophy prof: he doesn't have a law degree (he has a philosophy degree from MIT), and he doesn't teach in a law school (he teaches in UVM's philosophy department). So it's not clear how his publishing output is relevant in any way to law school curricula.

Weirdly sloppy researching/writing. Though it does open a small window onto just how dishonest that type of "quote 'incomprehensible' academic papers to show how out of touch they are" argument often is: the people making it rarely have a good-faith interest in understanding the papers they're citing, and instead quote random things without reading them.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#37
The fundamental issue I have. Why do we need lawyers?

This is not a flame, but a serious question: Would it be possible to phrase the law and change the procedures in a way that would obviate lawyers?

In jury trial a lawyer's task is more that of show master to convince the jurors (who are neither trained in law, nor in the matter of the trial) of their client's position.

The other task is help interpreting the law, because it is not phrased in terms that the "common person" would understand.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#38
"If medical schools took the same approach, they’d be filled with professors who had never set foot in a hospital."

Amusing, because med schools are filled with professors who have never practiced. They're called PhDs, and account for a huge majority of faculty at medical schools. That's why doctors have to do residency and medical rotations.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#39
post #21

While the article makes good points, I disagree with its fundamental premise that the case system is a bad way to prepare students for the practice of law. The article offers what is really an academic critique of law school education. In effect, it says, "wouldn't it be so much better if we could just dispense with all that abstract case-law analysis and get on with teaching prospective lawyers how to draft contract…

I disagree with its fundamental premise that the case system is a bad way to prepare students for the practice of law.

But surely the ABA mandated "Socratic Method" is? I'm under the impression that it would only really make sense if law were lawful, which stare decisis aka argument from authority is valid renders ridiculous. Then you've got "hornbooks" (or so I believe they're called) which are a workaround of the fact that the Socratic method doesn't work.

The other common law jurisdictions use the case law method, but they have decent text books, not functional kludges.

On another note, why are J.D.s so long? I've read that the majority of essential legal education happens in the first year, what can in some schools be an M.L.S. (Master of Legal Studies)

Can the apprenticeship part effectively be merged in with the academic part during law school?

B.A. + M.L.S. + 1 or 2 years supervised traineeship = qualified attorney.

That's approximately one of the methods of qualifying as a solicitor/barrister in the UK.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#40

The fundamental issue I have. Why do we need lawyers? This is not a flame, but a serious question: Would it be possible to phrase the law and change the procedures in a way that would obviate lawyers? In jury trial a lawyer's task is more that of show master to convince the jurors (who are neither trained in law, nor in the matter of the trial) of their client's position. The other task is help interpreting the law,…

Asking "why do we need lawyers" is like asking "why do we need CPAs?" Or "why do we need programmers", for that matter. In modern society its just the product of division labor. Some people specialize in the complex field, then advise other people. They leverage the economics of the fact that their knowledge can serve multiple clients who have similar problem, so the clients don't have to learn the law themselves.

It's not the phrasing that makes the law complex. It's the fact that the law is a mechanism through which we mediate human interaction, and the interactions of modern society are phenomenally complicated. E.g. the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, which is still basically "the law" in the area of antitrust, fits in just a few pages: http://www.linfo.org/sherman_txt.html

It's not dense legalese. "Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal." That's the gist of the Act. Yet, many lawyers make their living specializing in this law. Why? Because restraint of trade is hard to define precisely (if the Act tried to define it precisely, it would be dense legalese, like the Tax Code). Courts navigate antitrust suits largely be looking at what they've done before (consistency of result is often more important in law than getting the 'right answer', which may very well not exist). Lawyers help their clients navigate through that web of precedent.

It used to be the case, a hundred years ago, that law was unnecessarily complex. You had to plead cases in this highly stylized format, etc. That's all gone now. Courts will go to great lengths to make sense of a complaint written in crayon. What's left is a lot of necessary complexity. Look at the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure: http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/#chapter_vii

Again, it's not dense legalese. "A summons must be served with a copy of the complaint. The plaintiff is responsible for having the summons and complaint served within the time allowed by Rule 4(m) and must furnish the necessary copies to the person who makes service." When law students take civil procedure, the greatest source of complexity actually ends up being complexity inherent in our federal system: choice of forum, choice of law, etc. Under what circumstances can a California court exert jurisdiction over an Alabama resident? When does a federal court have to apply state law? Which state's law?

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