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Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

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Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#111

Post by radu_floricica »

leto_ii wrote: post #91
radu_floricica wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vans are nightmare stuff for motorcyclists. Hitting a compact car from most angles means rolling over it. Hitting a van from any angle is instant SPLAT - all potential energy gets instantly converted into damage. We don't have SUVs here (Eastern Europe), but I think they're a closer to vans than to compacts.

Radu, I'm Romanian too (and assuming based on your name you're Romanian), we have lots of SUVs. Maybe you're thinking of something else? Maybe pickup trucks?

I meant F-150 style cars. They're next level - much taller and wider than what we have here. Small 4x4s like Toyota RAV4 are closer to compacts, and you still have a fair chance to roll over if you hit them in the front.

I guess we do have larger 4x4s like Land Cruiser, forgot about them. They're somewhere in between? Wouldn't want to hit one, but it's not a guaranteed "splat".

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#112

Post by ajuc »

donw wrote: post #28
yboris wrote: post #14

Exactly on topic: a philosophy paper " Vehicles and Crashes: Why is this Moral Issue Overlooked? " by Douglas Husak. Author argues that because of the high crash incompatibility with other vehicles (and pedestrians), SUV driving is immoral - imposing an oversized amount of harm to others with no proportional safety for self. https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447

The big problem -- pun intended -- is that vehicles are de facto required by law to be huge. Imagine if we had cars that were built like cars from the 80s -- smaller, lightweight, tons of visibility, minimal equipment -- but with modern engine technology and a few of the electronics that don't add much weight, but add a ton of functionality (like 360-degree cameras). I'll take the road noise, less interior comfort, a…

Smart is smaller than most cars made in 80s, and modern compact/city cars are still reasonably light. It's just that somehow SUVs became fashionable. I can't understand why.

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#113

Post by mrweasel »

Auracle wrote: post #59

I drive a Camaro. I can’t fit an infant seat behind my driver’s side seat, and I sit abnormally closer to the steering wheel than most. Never mind a larger child seat. Ok, you’re saying - but that’s a Camaro. Well, said Camaro is in repair at the moment and they gave me a loaner. It’s a Chevy Sonic. I also can’t fit the infant seat behind the driver’s side. To be fair, it’s a subcompact. However, even in my wife’s CX…

That's actually annoying problem with modern cars, in my case it's doesn't help much moving up to bigger cars though. I'm pretty tall, so if I'm in any of the front sets, the seat behind me become unusable. So a car that fit a family of four, because effectively a three person car.

For trips with four people we put our child in the front passenger seat, my wife driving and I sit in the back. That's the only way to utilize all the seats. There might be cars available that solve the problem, but not within our budget. I get why, but it is annoying that anything above 185cm is consider outside the range of car designs.

Edit: just looking up the CX-5, and I assume it's the Mazda. Those are useless, I can't even drive those, there aren't enough leg room behind the wheel. On the other hand the Hyundai i10 has plenty of space... Just not for someone to sit in the back seat.

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#114

Post by austinjp »

astrobe_ wrote: post #104

Bigger vehicles are heavier; at the same speed as a passenger car, they have more kinetic energy. It is even worse when the victim is lighter, as per the momentum conservation principle. The study confirms the physics. What's unexpected is the last line of the abstract.

The line in question: "By race, Blacks are also found to be overrepresented as pedestrian and pedalcyclist crash victims."

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#115

Post by pjc50 »

ars wrote: post #22
yboris wrote: post #14

Exactly on topic: a philosophy paper " Vehicles and Crashes: Why is this Moral Issue Overlooked? " by Douglas Husak. Author argues that because of the high crash incompatibility with other vehicles (and pedestrians), SUV driving is immoral - imposing an oversized amount of harm to others with no proportional safety for self. https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447

Let's say we magically got rid of all SUV's. Then Douglas would find the next largest car and say the same thing. You need to have some kind of line that distinguishes moral from immoral, if you can't do that, then your calculation is risk based, not morality.

> calculation is risk based, not morality

Unfortunately it can't be a bright line. Exposing people to "excessive" risk is wrong, that's the basis of things like drink-driving laws. And that ends up turning it into an arbitrary but important line: you break the law if you exceed a blood alcohol content, but the risk you impose on other people increases seamlessly as the BAC goes up.

Trucks over a certain weight require extra licensing. I wonder if this threshold should be brought down to reflect the extra harm of larger vehicles?

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#116

Post by xvector »

dairylee wrote: post #93
ramraj07 wrote: post #36

Honestly as an upper middle class or rich American it looks like one of the more dangerous things you could do is probably go out cycling in a road shared by these monster machines. If you crave physical activity so much there’s many other alternatives. When I lived in College Station Texas I had to use a bike (because I was broke) but I stuck to the sidewalks, rules be damned. And even in the sidewalk had to keep an…

> If you crave physical activity so much there’s many other alternatives This seems like such a typical American view on cycling. The main aim of regular cycling isn't about physical activity, it's about getting from A to B. > I had to use a bike (because I was broke) And this too. Being able to afford to drive a car shouldn't be an aspiration and cycling isn't only for people who can't afford a car.

Cycling infra in the US is so terrible and horrid that it's no wonder that people assume you cycle if you're (a) too poor to afford a car, or (b) a fitness fanatic putting fitness ahead of your safety.

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#117

Post by choeger »

The sad thing is that at least some part of the growth of vehicles on the road is because few people can afford to own (and park) multiple cars or other vehicles larger than a bike.

I have to move 3 kids and 2 adults regularly over longer distances, so I am pretty much constrained to a van (say a VW T7). But unfortunately, I cannot afford to accompany this expensive car with a smaller, preferrably electric, vehicle. So whenever I have to switch off the bike and move something or someone by car, I switch to the van directly. Car sharing is pretty much uneconomical at that point and a motorcycle or even a cargo bike is problematic due to space constraints.

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#118

Post by tremon »

ramraj07 wrote: post #36

Honestly as an upper middle class or rich American it looks like one of the more dangerous things you could do is probably go out cycling in a road shared by these monster machines. If you crave physical activity so much there’s many other alternatives. When I lived in College Station Texas I had to use a bike (because I was broke) but I stuck to the sidewalks, rules be damned. And even in the sidewalk had to keep an…

I had to use a bike (because I was broke)

That's a sad commentary on society in and of itself.

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#119

Post by saiya-jin »

Prcmaker wrote: post #108
Gibbon1 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A complaint I have and I've heard from others is the airbags in the A pillars are a menace to pedestrians because they block the drivers view.

I've had an entire Mazda 2 hidden from view in a roundabout, by the A-pillar and associated airbag of a VE commodore. Pedestrians and bicycles required much more effort to see in that car than any other I've ever driven.

A good rule of thumb is, if you are in dense complex traffic, to move your head around a bit when looking out and in the mirrors. Better coverage of dead angle in side mirrors, adding a bit more 3D into perspective.

Its sort of defensive driving - expect troubles, idiotic clueless drivers, people having heart attack or just turning head to yelling kid on backseat / nice lady walking nearby. Can't save it all but definitely helps.

Driving in country where people, when averaged, drive like crap is a good learning experience (albeit stressful). For me, whenever I enter France from Switzerland (on average 1x per week), its night and day and training (with cursing) resumes.

Re: Effects of large vehicles on pedestrian and pedal-cyclist injury severity

#120

Post by Toutouxc »

Auracle wrote: post #59

I drive a Camaro. I can’t fit an infant seat behind my driver’s side seat, and I sit abnormally closer to the steering wheel than most. Never mind a larger child seat. Ok, you’re saying - but that’s a Camaro. Well, said Camaro is in repair at the moment and they gave me a loaner. It’s a Chevy Sonic. I also can’t fit the infant seat behind the driver’s side. To be fair, it’s a subcompact. However, even in my wife’s CX…

Are you and your wife just really really tall? I mean, I haven't driven any one of these particular cars, but I drive a 90 HP, 50 MPG sedan that four average adults can fit in comfortably.

Some things that American aspiring tank drivers say can't be done, are an everyday occurrence in Europe.

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