Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vanilla Android or AOSP might kinda have “Linux Spirit” but I’m not sure what gets shipped on most consumer devices does… lots of random things locked down (including boot loader, sometimes), crapware all over the place, drivers and kernel changes that aren’t upstreamed making it difficult to install anything but carrier/manufacturer-flavored Android, etc. I think most people rooting for “smartphone Linux” are lookin…
My pixel broke (was running CalyxOS, lineage before that), and I had to get a quick burner phone to make work calls. Got a $200 dollar used samsung. I didn't realize what utter trash nonsense is loaded onto normal phones. It's absolutely bonkers what Samsung did to destroy Android with no value add.
Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
201–210 of 282 posts
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#202Who actually wants to target such a mess? Nobody statistically. To enter the linux market you need to compile a matrix of distros, init systems, kernal module subsystems, package managers, device daemons, display servers, window managers, desktop environments, custom configuration formats, filesystem hierarchies, custom socket protocols, custom syscall interfaces, and whatever else. Or just literally re-invent everything and go your own way (Android and similar efforts). Repeat for each and every version of a "distro", each permutation having their interpretation of the correct "linux/unix" way. When you are developing software either for a direct profit motive or for a user freedom motive, they are aligned with having stable environmental targets that continue to work within a reasonable timeframe.
We all love siting conway's law: "Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure". The Linux userspace communication structure is plain chaos. As an app developer: what distro am I on, and at what version, what config file am I fiddling, what custom socket protocol do I need to implement, what obscure distro dependent library do I need to link against, and what horrendous wrappers do I need to write to get my software to not only run on "linux" but the other platforms where most users are.
Windows, MacOSX, IOS, and Android-flavors understand this better at least from a market perspective, because the most important aspect of computing is that software works more than less of the time. works > security. I don't have to upgrade my OS to get a new version of an app. I don't want an OS upgrade to change the version of an app. I don't have to know what static vs dynamic linking is. I don't have to dig into yet another custom config format to change simple settings. As much as I enjoy discussing the particulars of tech, and digging into details from time to time, at the end of a long day I just want my computing to work. The linux ecosystem does not provide that.
Yes manufactures play games with hardware locking out FOSS efforts. Some of that can be remedied by serving the legacy hardware market or providing manufactures an actual platform to target. At the same time, outside of the kernel, I see no effort of the linux userspace providing any sense of a unified UX, consistency, discoverability, or stability. Each new half decade presents yet another set of inconsistent interfaces, confusing commands, esoteric configs, outdated tutorials, and the general sense that FOSS is not positioned to serve tech at the human scale.
Until userspace can provide an interface that is stable, more or less like the kernel for a decade or more, with opportunity to shim for backwards compatibility for edge cases, we will never see linux exceed further than pets of backend infrastructure.
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#203Arch Linux ARM can be installed on Android with Termux I run scipy and numpy on my phone with it. A bit painful because I can only see about six lines of code at a time but I wrote a few thousand lines of ML code with vim on my cell phone in the last two months. https://github.com/SDRausty/termux-archlinux/
Termux is a godsend on Android, and remains The Only App Which Does Not Specifically and Precisely Suck (though EinkBro is giving it a good run for its money). Termux still has a host of limitations and weaknesses which are imposed by the Android environment itself , including being capriciously killed by the OS, lack of multiple users, blocked access to most of the filesystem, and a relatively limited (though impres…
Eventually I'm sure even AOSP will stop supporting the older Android SDKs too.
https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Termux_Google_Play
It just worries me because I love termux so much and it casts a shadow over its future.
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#204Inclined to say no - mainly because of the camera. The gap between ability to mechanically take a pic and what the flagships are doing with AI driven post processing seems not only big but growing. Short of die hard linux/FOSS fans noticably worse pics is going to be an absolute show stopper
Shoot raw then import into darktable. This seems like the simplest way to get there until more infrastructure is developed.
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is not AI - many of the best "AI" publications are open source after all. The problem is that hardware vendors do not provide access to their signal processing chip's internals. It is damn near impossible to even make a phone call these days without some obscure binary blob or magic chips that nobody knows what they do but are able to control every aspect of a phone.
> It is damn near impossible to even make a phone call these days without some obscure binary blob or magic chips that nobody knows what they do but are able to control every aspect of a phone. That’s always been the case for wireless phones; It’s nothing new. Your SIM card is running literal Java programs (hence where the “3 billion Java devices”) and can ask the baseband to send data for it with you having no way t…
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been. I honestly have to strongly disagree with that. Desktop Linux is more complex, more fragile, and more choice-less than 10-15 years ago. It might have a bit better hardware compatibility... but even back then it would run on just about anything. > Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side But can you actually use them as a…
Some apps exist: https://linuxphoneapps.org (Contributions welcome!) They aren't all perfect, but TBH, I would get by. I only miss Threema to switch fully at this point (which I've migrated many of my contacts too, so that's on me), but as work on a Matrix-bridge is ongoing there's a lot of hope. (I could also just use Waydroid + the Android app to fill this gap, but… that kills the battery (at least for the PinePhon…
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#207Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…
In theory its possible to run a user-land Android subsystem on Linux (and thus on Linux phones) via Anbox or Waydroid.
In practice, I've never tried this on my PinePhone since I never needed it, so I have no idea how well this works or of it works at all.
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Given the complexities involved in such an endeavor, I'm still confident in my assessment, especially when confronted with a one-liner just throwing a large number against the wall. If Microsoft couldn't get a mobile OS off the ground, despite trying, I don't see what the opportunity size has anything to do with it. Focusing on (even casual) gamers with specialized hardware works for a gaming-focused company, whereas…
Yes. But the gamer niche is just that. A niche. A toe hold. A position every up and coming brand / product dreams about. They can extend out from there. MS on the other hand, drank its own Kool Aid, threw it's weight around, went all in...and walked away empty handed. There was little value add. There was zero coolness. Etc. There are some similarities but that was then, this is now. A device that's "proven" - and so…
I think Microsoft is an organisation that's just too fragmented. Different BUs pulling it into different directions without a clear overall strategy.
Like with edge, they do some good stuff like ad/tracking blocking but at the same time introduce really nasty buy now and pay later scams that undermine any chance of it becoming a respected product. And that have no place in a browser at all.
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
Didn't work on the desktop? I've been running Linux exclusively on my desktops for 15 years. Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been. Why does every OS need to be suitable for average consumers? Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side, and projects like PostmarketOS are doing great work on the software side. These are niche products for motivated enthusiasts, as…
> Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been. I honestly have to strongly disagree with that. Desktop Linux is more complex, more fragile, and more choice-less than 10-15 years ago. It might have a bit better hardware compatibility... but even back then it would run on just about anything. > Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side But can you actually use them as a…
More complex, sure. Bare ALSA was simpler than Pulse/PipeWire. But the benefit of the additional complexity is that nowadays, sound just works. PipeWire gives us flexible audio routing pipelines like Jack, but for all audio applications rather than just pro audio! And as a counter-example, the X11 to Wayland transition considerably reduces the complexity of the display stack.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with "more fragile", but I definitely disagree with more choice-less. Sure, I wouldn't want to run modern Gnome on a full-size desktop/laptop (we have MATE, Xfce, and countless minimal WMs/compositors for that). But modern Gnome is great on tablets. Non-systemd and non-glibc distros are out there if you're into that sort of thing. Flatpak, etc are available if you're into that - if not, nobody's forcing you to use them.
> But can you actually use them as a phone?
Yes, with effort and some sacrifices. The velocity is in the right direction - the situation is much better than it was a year or two ago.
> Without that, they'll also never get the things that people want their phones to do.
I agree that there needs to be a sufficiently large community that things get developed. But this doesn't mean we need billions (or even millions) of users.
Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.
Even a non-popular Android isn't a choice for govmt e-id. I use a hardened Android distro (GrapheneOS) on my phone. Even with a locked bootloader and no root my countries (austria) e-government app and my banking app blocks me due to a "integrity check" failing.
There are pretty simple patches you can apply though to get it passing, assuming nothing else about the phone triggers it.