Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

media.ccc.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 282 posts

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#191

Post by GekkePrutser »

jacooper wrote: post #118
yosito wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used an Android phone with CalyxOS and microG for a year and never had this problem. There were a few apps I had a hard time getting APKs for without the Play Store, but even those I found I could side load from other devices that had the Play Store.

Or just use Aurora store! You dont have this problem because CalyxOS has a workaround for SafetyNet, i hear its pretty hacky, but it works.

The workaround is from microG. You can get it on lineage-microg too.

It has a bad name but really all that they do is replace Google's signing certificate with their own and change the OS to accept it. It's not that "hacky" IMO, you're just trusting a different party. It's just like when you install Ubuntu, you trust Canonical to sign your packages, not debian. They use the same thing to replace play services. And if you trusted Google you wouldn't be using microG anyways, you'd just use play services.

The reason it gets a bad rap is because of the risk MicroG's signing key gets stolen. This is obviously higher than the risk of this happening for Google which is definitely in some highly protected HSM vault somewhere. True. Personally if I were a MicroG developer I'd keep it on a smartcard somewhere like a yubikey so it couldn't be easily copied. I don't know if they do this.

On the other hand, there is more you need to do to exploit it, even if you have the signing key. You need to get the user to use some malicious software and get it on F-Droid or something undetected. Just having the private key will not net you anything.

In my point of view you're trading a definitely possible but difficult possibility of a hack, for a total certainty that Google will track you every hour of every day. Personally I don't trust my smartphone with that much information anyway, but Google manages to collect so much because of their extended network. So they're able to extract much more info from my smartphone than I put into it by association. So it's an ok tradeoff for me. Everyone needs to make their own judgement on that.

For that reason I don't use banking apps on my mobile anyway and I don't have a need for SafetyNet as a result.But it's nice to know that there is a possibility to use SafetyNet protected apps in some cases if I want (some detect the workaround I believe).

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#192

Post by squarefoot »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #164
3np wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?

I have a dumb phone (Nokia 8110 4G) that I wouldn't trade with the latest iOS/Android model, and during Covid restrictions I downloaded and printed the pass at home with no problems. I also pay a small fee to my bank so I can keep using SMSs for transaction confirmations instead of surrendering to their app. Also using SMSs with PayPal and a few other online services. The day they force me to use smartphones which, privacy aside, to me are next to unusable crap, to do things I can easily do on a PC, is the day I'm retiring to a technology-free place for the rest of my life.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#193

Post by mschuster91 »

zamadatix wrote: post #86
z3t4 wrote: post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

Even just unlocking an Android device causes most to stop working. I can't even log into PayPal app, which I assume is mostly just a WebView, because my phone is unlocked. At the same time it is apparently fineI do the same thing from the browser on my phone?

If you rooted it via Magisk, the DenyList feature and the module "Universal SafetyNet Fix" should help you out [0]. If you're running a custom firmware, you might need to resort to patching the device properties [1].

Still, it's utterly absurd how many apps go to extremely long lengths just to tell me they don't like me having root access to my own f..ing phone, including Samsung's Watch interface app. The only situation where I can at least understand the reasons are DRM and cheaters in f2p games.

[0] https://github.com/kdrag0n/safetynet-fix

[1] https://github.com/Magisk-Modules-Repo/MagiskHidePropsConf

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#194

Post by GekkePrutser »

oblak wrote: post #180
_carbyau_ wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?

Don't remind me. I tried to fight it for a decade. I was mad. MAD. We are being actively PUSHED into this shit and almost everyone seems to be totally fine with it. They are herding us into complete obedience. A phone is more secure because when you install their apps, they can monitor everything you do. Banking? Mobile. Document signing? Mobile. Toilet paper? Mobile. I am making a bet here: buy the end of the decade…

Indeed, it's becoming hard to avoid it.

Here in Spain we have the problem of this interpersonal payment system called "Bizum". It's like a local paypal but owned by the banks. So many people use it that it can't be avoided.

But my bank (and others too) only offer this functionality in their mobile app, not on their website. So if you need to use it you're really forced to use the mobile app.

In my case I have an old iPod Touch which I use only for this, nothing else. It works ok. But I wish I could just use it from the website from whatever device I want.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#195

Post by seba_dos1 »

morepork wrote: post #158
seba_dos1 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each AOSP version is just a big code drop from Google. It's really far away in the spirit. Not even talking about how difficult it is to patch some component as a user.

No it's not, AOSP is developed in the open. Directed by Google sure, but not just a code drop every release. Check out the current PRs in gerrit: https://android-review.googlesource.com/q/status:open+-is:wi...

I have taken a look at random git repo that seemed important enough: https://android.googlesource.com/platform/system/core.git

There's about 5% of commits made by people with e-mail domain different than google.com, android.com or chromium.org (6% if you count the last one too).

Pretty much the same result on another one: https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/base.gi...

Do you get to see the code of yet unreleased versions of Android? Sure, they do accept some patches, but "developed in the open" doesn't seem to describe their development model.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#196

Post by squarefoot »

NuSkooler wrote: post #18

It's mentioned already, but: Android. Discounting Android as "Not Linux" enough is a mind boggle to me. Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc.

> Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc.

True, but you forget being transparent and giving users control, which are vital aspects of Linux that Android is light years away from offering and will never offer.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#197

Post by hrbf »

zozbot234 wrote: post #188
hrbf wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the possible target market, there is a reason why only a handful of companies are producing competitive smartphones today. It reads as wishful thinking to me that a competitor would arise, bringing “cool” and “privacy” and whatever else along with them. If nothing else, you simply couldn’t get the parts and manufacturing capacity needed to go beyond a niche product without effectively building the capacity out…

Look at Fairphone. They're doing a modular, fully repairable phone build in a form factor that's only slightly bigger than current phones. They're not quite perfect wrt. openness, Linux status etc. but getting there.

This actually confirms my points. They are a niche company doing a niche device for a completely different target market, entirely not focused on performance but eco-friendliness. They are not mainstream competitive. The devices’ camera is at best usable. Also: needs Android to work at all.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#198

Post by GekkePrutser »

voltagex_ wrote: post #144
dimensionc132 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

good to know it's friendly to sailfish

Just a warning with that one - if you unlock it, it will never receive another Sony OTA, and there's no re-locking. Probably less of a problem now that it's out of support. Sailfish was also really rough on it.

It's long out of support from Sony but still runs the very latest LineageOS, Sailfish etc. And it was one of the very few officially supported sailfish phones, sailfish is just a bit rough itself :)

It's pretty decent hardware, mine still lasts 2 weeks on standby. Granted, I don't do much with it, I just use it to test out new lineage updates. No SIM in it. But it does receive some push messages through MicroG. I'm surprised how well it aged.

Not a fan of its hardware design though, with its overcomplicated ridges, seams and edges.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#199

Post by GekkePrutser »

fractallyte wrote: post #101
z3t4 wrote: post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

Just a datapoint: UK banking apps work perfectly on my Sailfish phone. Jolla's Android emulation is unreasonably excellent, one of their technological gems. If other Linux devices ever lift off, this will be one of the killer features that Jolla can license out. (And why not? I'm absolutely in favor of vendors selling Linux software.) As for Sailfish - it still offers the best, most consistent, simplest UI/UX of any…

Indeed, one of the amazing things would be if Android apps could be individually sandboxed on a Jolla (or other Linux) phone. Like each app would "think" it's running on a clean phone with absolutely nothing else on it.

So they could be completely blocked from accessing hardware I don't want them to (e.g. location) and communicating with other apps. Right now Android is way too open, every app can see what other app is on my device if I so much as need to share 1 photo.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#200

Post by preisschild »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #123
z3t4 wrote: post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.

Even a non-popular Android isn't a choice for govmt e-id.

I use a hardened Android distro (GrapheneOS) on my phone. Even with a locked bootloader and no root my countries (austria) e-government app and my banking app blocks me due to a "integrity check" failing.

Post reply on HN