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Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

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Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true and can be verified by anyone by installing random applications from Google Play Store without having Google Play Services installed. Since relatively recently, you can use some of them via microG, but compatibility varies. Sure, there's F-Droid and FLOSS software for Android, but if you're already willing to limit yourself to FLOSS Android apps you may very well limit yourself to FLOSS GNU/Linux apps to…

You've moved the goalposts. The original claim was that you couldn't run open source android with calendar, email, etc. But that is obviously not true because I'm doing that right now. Now you are pointing at a bunch of closed source software on Google Play, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. And even then you admit it mostly works with the microg compatibility layer. MicroG and WINE are not much different in t…

> the purely open source elements of the android ecosystem work far better than the pure Linux ecosystem

This isn't really true, unless you specifically care about compatibility with (1) proprietary Android apps and/or (2) fiddly hardware that's supported in downstream Android builds but lacks complete support on the mainline kernel. Everything else has basically reached and exceeded parity with AOSP. (To be fair, this is a very recent development indeed, and it's quite normal that most would be unaware of it.)

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#182
post #56

It's mentioned already, but: Android. Discounting Android as "Not Linux" enough is a mind boggle to me. Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc.

Yes, articles like this illustrate that RMS had a point, as annoying as he can be about it. Android is obviously Linux. What's missing is all of the things GNU and BSD brought to the party.

Try reading Linux man pages on things like system calls to map shared memory. On Android it won't work, and you have to call into Java code to do it. Google created a monster rather than work to get things merged into the kernel (there was some kind of possible resource leak or DoS with shared memory mapping).

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't work on the desktop? I've been running Linux exclusively on my desktops for 15 years. Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been. Why does every OS need to be suitable for average consumers? Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side, and projects like PostmarketOS are doing great work on the software side. These are niche products for motivated enthusiasts, as…

> Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been. I honestly have to strongly disagree with that. Desktop Linux is more complex, more fragile, and more choice-less than 10-15 years ago. It might have a bit better hardware compatibility... but even back then it would run on just about anything. > Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side But can you actually use them as a…

Some apps exist: https://linuxphoneapps.org (Contributions welcome!)

They aren't all perfect, but TBH, I would get by. I only miss Threema to switch fully at this point (which I've migrated many of my contacts too, so that's on me), but as work on a Matrix-bridge is ongoing there's a lot of hope. (I could also just use Waydroid + the Android app to fill this gap, but… that kills the battery (at least for the PinePhone).

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#184
post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

Even just unlocking an Android device causes most to stop working. I can't even log into PayPal app, which I assume is mostly just a WebView, because my phone is unlocked. At the same time it is apparently fineI do the same thing from the browser on my phone?

> At the same time it is apparently fineI do the same thing from the browser on my phone?

It's "fine" only because the banks security cargo cult couldn't find a way to own your device without losing money. Now they found it and they're not giving up their checklists to make your life better.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#185
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

>Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel.

no they didn't? you could just access the platform on your computer and print the QR code the old fashioned way. Hell, you could do that without even having any electronics, you could just go to the library and print it there.

>unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

this reads to me as "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems"

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true and can be verified by anyone by installing random applications from Google Play Store without having Google Play Services installed. Since relatively recently, you can use some of them via microG, but compatibility varies. Sure, there's F-Droid and FLOSS software for Android, but if you're already willing to limit yourself to FLOSS Android apps you may very well limit yourself to FLOSS GNU/Linux apps to…

You've moved the goalposts. The original claim was that you couldn't run open source android with calendar, email, etc. But that is obviously not true because I'm doing that right now. Now you are pointing at a bunch of closed source software on Google Play, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. And even then you admit it mostly works with the microg compatibility layer. MicroG and WINE are not much different in t…

> But that doesn't make sense because the purely open source elements of the android ecosystem work far better than the pure Linux ecosystem, which is my original point.

Do they? I'm using a GNU/Linux phone and I'm happy with it. Of course there are things Android is better at, but that it "works far better" sure isn't something I would say without additional qualifiers.

> There is no advantage that you can point to for GNU/Linux over Android/Linux other than just being "pure Linux".

There sure is. Android ecosystem may be much more mature by now, but it's incredibly hard to hack on. I have recently built a LineageOS image in order to apply bunch of small patches and it took me several hours, 200GB of disk space and couldn't even start building without 16GB of RAM, because the build system was going out-of-memory otherwise. I had to use a VPS because I didn't even have any computer around that I could pull this off on, except of Steam Deck I guess :P In the end, I got two image files that I could flash into the device wholesale that messed up some applications that expected the system to be signed with the same keys as previously.

On my Librem 5, however, I'm able to do `apt source phosh`, `apt build-dep .`, change something and then run `dpkg-buildpackage` to have it recompiled right on the phone itself in a matter of minutes, producing a single deb that I can install and immediately test my changes to whichever system component I want to play with. And if I don't want to hack on the system itself, there's stuff like full blown Python interpreter preinstalled, with bunch of compilers available straight from the repos, for easy scripting and app development right on the device.

If Windows had worked 15-20 years ago when I was still using it like Android does now, I would have never learned the vast majority of what I know about computers now. I gained a lot of knowledge simply by tinkering with my PC, breaking it and learning how to fix it. Being able to patch and change various system stuff by myself was very empowering when I switched to GNU/Linux. These days, most computing happens on mobile phones and tablets with children often completely unfamiliar with common PC workflows that aren't mirrored on mobile; the whole new generation of people, despite of using an OS that's technically Open Source at its core, is mostly deprived from ability to play with their own hardware, and even if they're technically not, the learning curve is often prohibitively high and stuff like SafetyNet still gets in the way - while in my youth I used to learn Python by writing, running and debugging scripts on my Openmoko phone while riding a tram back from school.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#187
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?

Curiously, most of these apps are web-based anyway, just wrapped inside an app.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#188
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But the gamer niche is just that. A niche. A toe hold. A position every up and coming brand / product dreams about. They can extend out from there. MS on the other hand, drank its own Kool Aid, threw it's weight around, went all in...and walked away empty handed. There was little value add. There was zero coolness. Etc. There are some similarities but that was then, this is now. A device that's "proven" - and so…

Given the possible target market, there is a reason why only a handful of companies are producing competitive smartphones today. It reads as wishful thinking to me that a competitor would arise, bringing “cool” and “privacy” and whatever else along with them. If nothing else, you simply couldn’t get the parts and manufacturing capacity needed to go beyond a niche product without effectively building the capacity out…

Look at Fairphone. They're doing a modular, fully repairable phone build in a form factor that's only slightly bigger than current phones. They're not quite perfect wrt. openness, Linux status etc. but getting there.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

>Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. no they didn't? you could just access the platform on your computer and print the QR code the old fashioned way. Hell, you could do that without even having any electronics, you could just go to the library and print it there. >unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office. this reads to me as "if y…

True, I printed mine on credit card format and laminated it, it was in my card wallet. Much faster than opening an app every time and zero tracking, at least on my side.

Glad we're rid of that though.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

>Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. no they didn't? you could just access the platform on your computer and print the QR code the old fashioned way. Hell, you could do that without even having any electronics, you could just go to the library and print it there. >unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office. this reads to me as "if y…

> this reads to me as "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems"

You missed the part where they might actually prefer to use digital systems but would only be able to so by delegating their identity to a trusted and locked down iOS or Android+SafetyNet device. Other comments seem to indicate that this is not a strict requirement for filing your taxes digitally where GP is at, but that's beside the point of your comment.

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