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Remote startups will win the war for top talent

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Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#441

Post by trention »

time_to_smile wrote: post #316
trention wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think you will be able to tell by looking at a period of 6 months whether a contraction (that hasn't actually even started yet in terms of total employment) is just a regular recession or the apocalypse you prophesize, I have a brooklyn bridge to sell you.

"Apocalypse" is needlessly dramatic language. I think in 6 months we'll: - Unquestionably be in a recession - Have interest rates higher than they are today (i.e. cheap money does not return) - Major layoffs across the board at tech companies - It will be much harder to find a tech job after layoffs - Inflation still not tamed despite interest rate hikes and declining employment - Clear sentiment that this is worse t…

And I think your hunch is about as correct as your rationale for posting the M1 graphic without reading the note below it or noticing that it jumped 4-fold in a single month.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#442

Post by s1artibartfast »

wowokay wrote: post #94
icedchai wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communications and collaboration is very important. However, "socializing" through Slack is simply just not the same as going out to lunch with a coworker, for example. Permanent remote work has a very detached feel to it, at least for me.

I assume you don’t keep in touch with people through social media or texting then? Or would you not consider those remote people actual friends since you can’t collaborate with them in physical locations regularly?

For the most part, I don't consider people I keep in contact with on social media or via text close friends. At best, our friendships are on hold.

Nearly all of the meaningful interactions I have with friends require collocation.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#443

Post by badpun »

lm28469 wrote: post #53
bearjaws wrote: post #16

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

> Meanwhile we have had no problem sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world, we have some incredible people all over the world that we would not have gotten otherwise. How do you handle taxes ? For example in Europe a German company can't hire a French dev if the german company doesn't have a legal entity in France, it quickly gets out of control both in term of paperwork and cost. The dev can…

> For example in Europe a German company can't hire a French dev if the german company doesn't have a legal entity in France, it quickly gets out of control both in term of paperwork and cost.

They can - they just have him as a contractor, not a permanent employee. Source: I'm a Polish contractor contracting for a German startup.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#444

Post by librish »

dogman144 wrote: post #433
librish wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can reach whatever conclusion you want by assigning "high risk" to the things you don't want to do and "low risk" to the things you want to do but that doesn't make it more objective. My experience is that the risk-adjusted expected value of being a sociable person at work is positive, both for your career and your overall happiness. I gather you think it's negative, which is fine, but let's not pretend one of us…

No, I don’t think it’s negative. Being sociable as actually the best way to get ahead in work. People want to help people who are nice and help back. This is the only way to do well long term at work, paired with really knowing your skill set. The difference is I can do that sociable action just fine without adding an office dynamic that adds a commute and related expenses to my day (from a remote work discussion ang…

I have, but not in a way that has me worried for myself. The cases of backfire I've seen it's been either horrid opinions or gross misconduct.

I don't disagree that some of this might be needed if you're angling to climb the management ladders and large multinationals but I don't think that accurately describes most posters at HN.

Thanks for the updated summary, it sounds super interesting. I'm going to read it as soon as I can.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#445

Post by dogman144 »

mym1990 wrote: post #439
dogman144 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sweeping effect is already happening. The Mayor of NYC and state governor are directly petitioning companies to “fill our downtown!” For Pete’s sake. So, with that in mind, I’m advocating for employees who want to go back to consider how their vocal opinions affect other employees who don’t want it, which based on the ghost-town hybrid office attempts and midtown NYC being at like 40% capacity are a critical mass…

You're asking for candor, but not giving a bit of it back. Your argument can be completely flipped for the other side and it would make the same points. You are assuming OP is on LinkedIn boards and in work meetings holding up signs to initiate RTO. In reality they are probably just on HN expressing an opinion. For Pete's sake.

How so? What am I not being candid about and how can it be flipped. I’m not assuming OP is anywhere, I’m pointing out what OPs opinion, in aggregate, does to job trends and the externalities and consequences are beyond a narrow “I miss going to the pub after work.”

Candidly, I believe that employees who advocate for RTO are playing into the hands of stakeholders who don’t care much at all about those employees interests and reasons for going in, and by extension it damages fellow employees who want to stay remote.

The issue is, and by extension my primitives:

- remote employees can stay remote without damaging RTO employees’ social connections as there are a mountain or ways to get those social connections outside of easy-mode work.

- if RTO employees start going back, remote employees get damaged. There is the binary in office/not in office option. demonstrated outcomes are RTO pressure from some leads to RTO pressure for all.

- so, remote employees aren’t infringing on RTO, but RTO infringes on remote. There is more than enough evidence of this. One is allowing whoever to do whatever, the other is infringing on one population to support the social needs of another. That doesn’t seem right for Pete’s sake.

Ultimately, between a person’s ability to get easy access to a pub in light of the above, vs the resulting damage on employees who just want to work via the internet connection in their homes vs the one in the office and as a result see their kids grow up and get to know their spouses outside of pre-8am and post-7pm… that seems like a clear greater good to orient around and to be aware of one’s views’ impacts. It’s more than just pub nights involved.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#446

Post by kaashif »

dogman144 wrote: post #431
mym1990 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are advocating for the censorship of someone who supports return to office based on the fact that it would create a sweeping effect across the industry that would force you back into a cubicle? Yeah, no thanks.

The sweeping effect is already happening. The Mayor of NYC and state governor are directly petitioning companies to “fill our downtown!” For Pete’s sake. So, with that in mind, I’m advocating for employees who want to go back to consider how their vocal opinions affect other employees who don’t want it, which based on the ghost-town hybrid office attempts and midtown NYC being at like 40% capacity are a critical mass…

The great thing about markets is that we can both get what we want. You can get a remote job, and I can get an in-person job.

I will continue to argue against any government regulations forcing the issue one way or another. But if companies start demanding workers return and the pool of jobs available to you shrinks, that's not my problem.

To be clear, I oppose Mayor Adams's (and anyone else's) inept efforts to distort the labor market in favor of in-person working, even if it's towards something I personally prefer. Government should play no role in remote vs in-person.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#447

Post by tmaly »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #362
jofer wrote: post #141

I've been working 100% remotely for about 6.5 years now. Overall I love it. However, there are very real drawbacks that have taken me awhile to fully realize. For me, the primary one is that it's _way_ too easy for everyone to get deeply frustrated with each other. Social interactions and chit-chat lead to a better understanding of people and a more accurate mental model of what people actually mean when they say som…

I've spent a lot of effort trying to be present in Zoom now that we've gone all remote. I've invested in a decent setup. I connect using ethernet on my work laptop so there aren't any latency concerns. I have a high quality headset so there's no feedback and good quality audio. I have a nice camera and some lights to make sure my face is illuminated. I rely a lot on whiteboarding at work, so I try (and find this to b…

It is a little bit more effort, but you can mirror an ipad/ipad pro to your desktop. It is a much nicer whiteboard than wacom especially if you have the apple pen.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#448

Post by tmaly »

brundolf wrote: post #280
jofer wrote: post #141

I've been working 100% remotely for about 6.5 years now. Overall I love it. However, there are very real drawbacks that have taken me awhile to fully realize. For me, the primary one is that it's _way_ too easy for everyone to get deeply frustrated with each other. Social interactions and chit-chat lead to a better understanding of people and a more accurate mental model of what people actually mean when they say som…

This is a big one that it took me a while to fully appreciate I've found that even just turning my camera on in Zoom meetings makes a difference. Joining the standup call a little early, having "face to face" chitchat, builds up a small buffer of rapport that significantly improves empathy and perceived intent Especially if you need to have a conversation where there might be some existing friction/tension/frustratio…

I agree with joining the meeting a little early. It is nice to catch up with people.

I am in a hybrid situation now, so I try to take different team members out for coffee and give them some one on one face time when they are in the office on the same day me.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#449

Post by mbesto »

bart_spoon wrote: post #331
mbesto wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. I think you should elaborate on why the hybrid model is a struggle, I personally don't see it as one.

Its the worst of both worlds. The benefit of remote work is that it gives employees the flexibility to live where they want, and eliminates daily miseries like a commute, both of which the pandemic have proven to be massive priorities for employees. It opens up potential hires to anywhere in the country (or even world). It also allows you to focus on investing in software and practices aimed at maximizing remote effe…

> And if "water-cooler talk" and in person collaboration really is that much more effective, then you are still reducing the capacity for that happening by 40+% or more by letting employees work from home 2 or more days a week.

Weird, you talked about the benefits of either side (remote or office) and then just completely dispelled one side of it (in office) as if. If each side has benefits, isn't it the "best of both worlds"?

> You also make it so that investing in remote-friendly tools, and office amenities, are both required and less beneficial than if you just picked one.

So this is the downside? The tooling investments you made are less beneficial?

> And in my case, it would literally be impossible since I (and many others who have been hired since the pandemic started) are hundreds of miles away from the office.

I think this is the crux. Companies that went fully remote during COVID and are now forcing any office time without considering the changes in people's personal living situations (e.g. "I moved to San Antonio and can't possibly commute to Dallas 3x a week"). I think that is a different, but related, issue entirely.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#450

Post by Karrot_Kream »

ryandrake wrote: post #420
cbdumas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This cuts both ways though. Working from home my "circle of communication" has gotten much smaller than it ever was before, because I don't run in to people.

I'd argue if a company depends too much on "spontaneous hallway conversations" for information flow/exchange, that should be treated as a problem to correct. Most places I've worked that relied heavily on word-of-mouth had similar problems: - Terrible written documentation - Major and minor decisions not reaching everyone affected, resulting in a lot of people not knowing what's going on - Perception of decisions get…

> I'd argue if a company depends too much on "spontaneous hallway conversations" for information flow/exchange, that should be treated as a problem to correct

I don't think this is a black-and-white issue. Sometimes a "spontaneous hallway conversation" clarifies in 5 min what a 30 min Zoom call would otherwise do.

3 of my coworkers and I coordinated a few months back to go in on a single day together. I was reading over a doc a coworker wrote and had a question about a portion and found him grabbing coffee and coming back to his desk. I just went over and asked him the question, he clarified, then we both sat back at our desks and got back to work; I was unblocked. If we were remote, I'd DM him and then stop reviewing the doc until I got an answer. I often context switch out of work I need clarification on since I have no guarantee that the coworker is even ready to help. Having state (in a meeting, not at your desk, at your desk, chatting with a coworker, etc) on coworker availability is very useful for efficiently working.

> Perception of decisions getting made in secret or without transparency

I'd argue that this is worse remote. When remote, a lead and a manager get into a VC call and hash out the team roadmap without any input from the team. They can reason it's a lot easier on availability and less disruptive on the rest of the team to make the decision. While the lead and manager offer the plan to the team for comment, the team feels demotivated because they have to read and push back rather than sit at the table for comment. In office, the lead and manager can discuss things at desks and interested employees can overhear and interject. It's not perfect of course (favors those around for the conversation), but it's better than the Zoom world.

I think hybrid remote-first work is the best of both options but I think most companies going fully remote will not go hybrid because the cost savings of doing everything online is just so much higher. As you noted, offline-first companies will treat remote workers and second-class citizens.

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