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The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

netzpolitik.org

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Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#321

Post by ChrisKnott »

concordDance wrote: post #254
ChrisKnott wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Saying that this is about child protection is a blatant lie." Why do you think this? What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? Helen Lovejoy wasn't lying, she was sincerely (but irrationally) concerned for the children. HNers believe this conspiracy theory about their own governments (that they are deliberately secretly plotting to be despotic, and using the cover of tryi…

> Why do you think this? Because it's happened before. Systems put in place nominally to fight child abuse end up being used for copyright enforcement.

Do you have links for those systems? I can't find anything, but "copyright" is not a good Google search term...

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#322

Post by stef25 »

TakeBlaster16 wrote: post #278
ChrisKnott wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Saying that this is about child protection is a blatant lie." Why do you think this? What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? Helen Lovejoy wasn't lying, she was sincerely (but irrationally) concerned for the children. HNers believe this conspiracy theory about their own governments (that they are deliberately secretly plotting to be despotic, and using the cover of tryi…

> What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? If they sent people into the the real world (where the children are), instead of passively spying on bits and bytes > HNers believe this conspiracy theory about their own governments Not a conspiracy theory, and not specific to HN. I dare say it's a mainstream opinion, which explains why they can't openly admit to it and the docume…

> If they sent people into the the real world (where the children are), instead of passively spying on bits and bytes

What would those people do in the real world? Kind of a rhetorical question but if you have a good answer then shoot :)

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#323

Post by [deleted] »

rpastuszak wrote: post #276
paganel wrote: post #222

As an EU citizen I didn't know exactly what that Chat Control thing was, so I web searched it: > The EU wants to oblige providers to search all private chats, messages, and emails automatically for suspicious content – generally and indiscriminately. The stated aim: To prosecute child pornography. [1] Yeah, that will go down well, a central government checking our private conversations for "suspicious content". Of co…

> F. that, the only viable solution I see for my country is an exit from the EU Genuine, not loaded question: and then what? What do you expect to happen?

[deleted]

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#324

Post by gloppers »

7373737373 wrote: post #96
gloppers wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that sounds fine to me. We have specially trained police in this category of crimes, for good reason. I trust them to investigate fairly and proportionately. If we cast aside the hyperbole and look at the actual details of what is being proposed in this regulation, it's clear they're taking a decent and reasonable approach here.

And you think that the potential capture of a few criminals outweighs the violation of privacy of communications of 450 million humans? You'd be okay with forcing this onto people who don't want this, and the majority who won't even know that this is happening?

I don't agree that having a CSAM detection algorithm running in your messaging client is a violation of privacy.

If it detects something and alerts the relevant authorities, there will then be a proportional reduction of privacy while they investigate, but this is true of any criminal investigation.

Doing it this way strikes a reasonable balance. Other alternatives include doing nothing at all, or sending a copy of all private communications to a third party - neither of which are desirable.

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#325

Post by qubex »

Spivak wrote: post #302
qubex wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sky hasn’t fallen?? Have you read https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil... ?

Google found an image of potential cp, literally a naked child, and forwarded it to the authorities to figure out if it was legit. Other than the person having their Google account suspended which is a separate issue from the surveillance I see zero issue with the events as they happened. In a bygone era where you had to get photos developed I would have expected the 1 hour photo employee to do the same.

That’s a totally alien idea to me. I grew up in a very nudity-friendly family in Europe and the idea that something as trivial as a naked photograph could occasion such a quasi-disaster is absolutely horrifying.

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#326

Post by vageli »

denton-scratch wrote: post #263
Bogdanp wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But individual countries within the EU can and do have constitutions. Here's title 2, chapter 2, article 28[1] of Romania's constitution: > Secretul scrisorilor, al telegramelor, al altor trimiteri poştale, al convorbirilor telefonice şi al celorlalte mijloace legale de comunicare este inviolabil. > Secrecy of the letters, telegrams and other postal communications, of telephone conversations, and of any other legal m…

A number of Eastern European countries joined the EU without first bringing their domestic legislation into line with the European treaties. Unsurprisingly, some of those countries have dragged their feet about coming into compliance after the fact. This is one reason I was in favour of Brexit. That "title 2 chapter 2" seems reasonable enough to me; but it's a problem if an EU Regulation comes into conflict with the…

That doesn't seem to be the case uniformly across Europe, as several states have invalidated EU law primacy when it conflicts with their constitution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#327

Post by gloppers »

mayoi wrote: post #153
7373737373 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you think that the potential capture of a few criminals outweighs the violation of privacy of communications of 450 million humans? You'd be okay with forcing this onto people who don't want this, and the majority who won't even know that this is happening?

Yes, he'd be okay with it, he has nothing to hide after all, not even the fact that his phone got stolen and was used to send bomb threats to 30 nearest hospitals, then destroyed, in the area where he lives with court ruling that he's guilty + getting extra time for destroying all evidence. Literally NOONE would ever do such a thing, it's not like criminals already communicate using stolen devices and even buy things…

If my phone got stolen, the police would be investigating the person who stole it. Inventing outlandish scenarios isn't really a good argument here.

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#328

Post by raverbashing »

yccs27 wrote: post #280
rjzzleep wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, not at all. The Greens, are more ideologically driven than any other party and not in a good way(and that ideology does not line up with their campaign promises at all). They have been the single most destructive force in German politics and they have not kept a single campaign promise. This is the supposed "Green" party that campaigned on anti-war and not sending weapons to war zones and closing coal that…

How can you complain about them being "ideologically driven", and simultaneously criticize them for not insisting on anti-war/environmental ideas in the face of war in Ukraine? I say they're doing realpolitik, even if it might lose them some of their more ideologically entrenched voters.

Hah I completely agree.

Realpolitik trumps ideology. And I'm happy the Greens go that way

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#329

Post by GekkePrutser »

hammyhavoc wrote: post #320
GekkePrutser wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big cities are always a lot more progressive. But a christian-conservative like Merkel wouldn't have come to power if it wasn't for the more rural masses. They must have enough votes to influence policy in such a big way. And those are the ones that are the most susceptible to 'for the children!!!' type privacy invasion. At least in my experience here in the Netherlands, this is usually the angle those measures are p…

That's very interesting re Hetzner. When I signed up Hetzner about two weeks ago, I wasn't asked for any kind of ID, in fact I was quite surprised how little friction there was. Experience hasn't been good though, so you haven't missed out on much. Downtime and connectivity issues have meant hours of time wasted on an issue that wasn't even at our end. Will check out Scaleway!

Strange. This was at least 5 years ago so perhaps it changed.

I'm very happy with scaleway. They're a bit smaller and really easy to deal with IMO, you can ask them questions directly on slack and they don't look down on the small customer. I have 2 VPSes of the cheapest kind "Stardust" (1,80€ per month) and they're quick and friendly.

They used to have 8-core atom servers that were a bit unstable, mainly due to the nbd network based root filesystem. One network hiccup and it would go read only. They were really cheap though (12€ per month for dedicated metal is pretty amazing) but I did need support for that a couple of times.

But since I moved over to their VPS offering I've had no issues and I heard that they deprecated all the nbd based platforms due to these issues.

Re: The EU Commission accepts high error rates when checking chats

#330

Post by therealmarv »

There is a fundamental problem to making everyone a suspect. I'm no criminal... why do I need to prove it to the state(s) and companies with EVERY message sent?

Not even when driving a car I'm tracked all the time. And I think driving a car can be also dangerous.

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